Should spanking Be Outlawed?

[Nu Kua]

Mass. Considers Outlawing Spanking

I was reading this story and was wondering what most people thought of spanking children these days.

I personally think the law is overkill... I'd prefer to see legislation of some sort making more effort in recognizing signs of abuse, and work to correct that situation.

[Fyhre]

I don't have children myself, but I'm a firm believer that spanking (nothing beyond hand-to-butt) is a decent, non-traumatic punishment. Spanking certainly helped me stay out of trouble as a kid.

[Assassin X]

Pretty much the same thing. I believe in a simple hand-to-cheek one time thing in extreme cases...etc.

But if people are just spanking a child for every little thing and do it it really harshly and at some point using things like paddles...etc then its time to ask questions. Some people can't tell the difference between spanking as punishment and spanking as abuse.

A law that bans it period would make alot of people speak out.

[Skygirl]

Once again Massachusetts gets it's priorities messed up. I deal with kids at two middle schools in Holyoke and prior to that I worked at Brightside in Springfield. Both are inner-city communities. The amount of abuse I have seen breaks my heart. Instead of telling parents not to do something they should provide services to recognize abuse, to prevent abuse from being passed on generationally and how to be responsible when it comes to punishment. Excessive corporal punishment isn't the only form of abuse for crying out loud.

[Fut004]

Kids now-a-days are all spoiled little brats.
This is due to Parents being terrified to discipline their children.

There's nothing wrong with a spank if the kid did something to deserve it. I'm not suggesting that people beat their kids or anything, just a few good whacks to let them know they did wrong and to not do it again.

Originally Posted by Homer Simpson

It's Spanking Season, and I've got a Hankering for some Spankering.

[Cherisa]

I think the law should be passed. As a victim of overzealousness of spare the rod spoil the child parenting, I suffer from the effects of that today. it is shameful to spank a child in order to try and teach them. There are other ways. I wish I had been sent to the corner!

[Cartesiantheater]

Spanking teaches children how to speed when they don't see a cop, how to fudge on their taxes, how to steal things from the refrigerator at work, how to curse in the parking lot on their way to the church sacturary on Sunday's, how to look at those highschool girls when they go to pick up their daughter from cheerleader practice, how to think of a coworker while you're having sex with your wife, etc etc.

It does NOT teach right and wrong. It teaches how to commit wrongs only when you think no one is looking.

Unless the child is doing something dangerous, I say spaking is simply lazy parenting, or a last resort when you've already screwed up the first year or so of the child's life by being a lazy, unprepared parent.

[Fut004]

Originally Posted by Cartesiantheater

Spanking teaches children:
how to curse in the parking lot on their way to the church sacturary on Sunday's
how to think of a coworker while you're having sex with your wife, etc etc.

I really hope that you're joking with that.

Originally Posted by Cartesiantheater

I say spaking is simply lazy parenting, or a last resort when you've already screwed up the first year or so of the child's life by being a lazy, unprepared parent.

Can you enlighten me with your recommendations for disciplining children without spanking them?

Besides, I don't think anybody here is saying that you should spank your kid for everything they do. But there are times when nothing else gets through to them.

[Assassin X]

^^^^ Exactly.

This is not by any means trying to be offensive to people that had spanking done to them in a more abusive way. But I notice people that have had that done seem to think it doesn't work just because their parents are idiots.

Like I said in other topics about spanking theres a right way, time and place. If you just use it as your "solve everything" then your a moron.

sometimes it is inevitable that emotions is very rush (-_-) but according to the environmental and hobbies or traits kinds, etc. related to inner personal kindness statistics that you were live in + factors why sometimes that you don't want to hurt your son's and dughter's but you already laid your heavy hands with them it's ok it's natural but after an HOUR or not long time say sorry to each other even your great adversaries will be wondering why you say always sorry in a reasonable and understanding that the child and or you' yourself both of you promise not to commit the same mistakes (^^,) reconciliation. heart to heart talk. people are poeple if it's not working well all the options you've done to say sorry giving way first and that's the TIME(^^,) the words say THANK YOU AGAIN ATIME WILL HEAL THE WOUNDS
sample divorce(^^,) childrens are affected to be a rebbel to their parents (-_-).

I will choose yes and no in different angles and situation just like the decision of king solomon when he was younger (^^,)

[Skynet12]

It can leave mental damage,also, it is the wimp's way to dicipline.

[Cartesiantheater]

Originally Posted by Fut004

I really hope that you're joking with that.

Yes, it was meant to be humorous, but the point was serious. Spanking teaches you how not to get caught, not how to behave morally. Spanking is only affective in the immediate short term, because again, it does not teach morals. It teaches how to avoid getting caught.

Can you enlighten me with your recommendations for disciplining children without spanking them?

First of all, training children without spanking requires your free time. MOST of it. If you can't devot yourself to your children in that degree, then really, you're up shit creek. From the beggining you've got to get your child to look at you as their confidonte, as their instructor, as their role model (which is easy to do since they're programned by nature to do this). How many parents give their kids legos so they can go watch 24? That is the WRONG way to do it. Get down on the floor and spend real time with them. This is how you condition them. They observe what you do and emulate it. Kids are like "monkey see monkey do."

Explain in detail why certain actions should not be done (most parents are too lazy for that part, so they don't do it. Yet kids can be explained religious behavior patterns no problem. What's the difference?)

You've got to be sneaky and "trick" them (which is done easily enough). "Hey, I want to get home and make some ice cream. Let's swing through the monkey bars one more time and then go home so we can eat some ice cream."

You've got to be willing to remove all things fun from your child's possession if he/she won't cooperate. You have access to the circuit breakers... etc.

Condition them like we do animals. When they do something right, make it worth their while. Then vary the rewarding system to where they aren't sure if behaving gets them the reward, but do it enough so there is an incentive. Varried reward systems have been proven again and again to be extremely effective ways of conditioning.

Remain calm and patient at all costs. Show your child that you are in control of YOU. He/she will emulate you. That is what young kids do. This is how they survived through the eons. Their brains are waiting to be brainwashed. There's no other way to put it. I have seen methods like this work myself, in my cousin. Never spanked in his life, never been in trouble at ALL. No detention, no tickets, nothing. I'll ask for some details from my uncle, but it seems that the one thing that stood out in their relationship is that my uncle has always been in control of himself, he has always "had the answers," and he was never too busy to explain himself or to express shame at the behavioral failures of his son in a way that made the son want to prove himself to his father, etc.





However, here's one thought I've been toying with, however. Teach your kids behavioral patterns the same way you teach them religious ones. How often do kids purposefully curse God in a Christian home? Almost never, yet they'll break every other rule in the house once in a while. Why not blasphemy though? Because kids can be programed like computers. Program morals into them the same way you program your religion. How do you teach kids religion? Do the same thing when teaching them to behave.

Besides, I don't think anybody here is saying that you should spank your kid for everything they do. But there are times when nothing else gets through to them.

I believe sometimes in dire situations that involve the safety of the child and results are required immediately than immeadiate physical action may be required. As a retribution for crimes? No, I think it only teaches them how to do it in such a way that you won't catch them- unless of course, you've already blown the formative years where you take advantage of your child's natural instinct to copy everything you do and say.

[Fyhre]

I was raised by my mother, as she and my father divorced while I was very young. I got punished for the most ridiculous things imaginable by her. This included strangulation, a snakeskin belt to my bare behind, and often calling me a c*nt. I must be honest and say I turned out to be a very decent person. I don't steal, prostitute myself, or do drugs...and overall, I'm pretty happy. I just wish that was all she did was spank me because the other punishments were unnecessary.

Sometimes, a spanking is in order IMHO.

[equalizer]

I voted NO. When I was a young lad I used to get a good beating at least once a day. I deserved it more than not. A child has to know who the boss is just like the family pet. If they sense weakness in anyway they will take advantage of it. A big can of whoop ass is an essential part of growing childs diet.

[Nu Kua]

I have spanked my children, but only in situations where they were doing something very dangerous... I think in a conversation with Assassin I told how my daughter once dashed across the street and yes I did spank her then. I figured, better a pain from a Mama's spanking than to be hit by a car. Since she had never received a spanking before, getting one shocked her into realizing just how serious it was to run out in the street.

But it does take work and attention to raise your child to learn right from wrong, and it is a far better method to take this time and energy to teach your children. That is what I meant earlier when saying that raising children is a job, and an important one. If spanking was done correctly, it would never take the place of the duty of teaching your child right from wrong.
But yes some parents use it to release their own frustrations, and some parents also do not understand that spanking just for punishment never, ever teaches anything other than its OK to hit people of they do not follow your rules.

My parents spanked me, beat me, threw things at me, cussed me, destroyed my stuff, sometimes just for looking at them funny. Yet they were outstanding memebersof the community and the church.
I agree with Skygirl, Massachusett could much better serve the people by focusing on how to recognize true abuse of a child and then to take measures to remove that child from the situation. Some parents can be taught better, and there should be an attempt to, because ideally the parents will learn to become decent parents, nobody wants to break up a family... yet it is sad but true, many are somewhat retarded and will never learn where to draw the line.

[Fut004]

Wow, I'm actually impressed by your response CT.

Originally Posted by CT

Spanking is only affective in the immediate short term, because again, it does not teach morals. It teaches how to avoid getting caught.

I don't completely agree with you on this one.
If you use Spanking as a Disciplinary action the way I envision it should be used it'll really drive home the point to the child.

If you child is never spanked ever and then they do something completely wrong and you give them a whack, it just might make them think "Wow, I really must have done something wrong this time." Maybe it'll sink in that whatever action they just took should never be taken again.

Originally Posted by CT

First of all, training children without spanking requires your free time. MOST of it. If you can't devot yourself to your children in that degree, then really, you're up shit creek.

Agreed. If you cannot have 1 parent at home with the child at all times during their first few years, you clearly don't have time to raise a child.

Originally Posted by CT

You've got to be willing to remove all things fun from your child's possession if he/she won't cooperate. You have access to the circuit breakers... etc.

That makes sense. But not all kids are the same, some of them might not be as logical or sensible as the others. What do you do after you've tried taking the toys, and the treats, and the television? When you're down to the last straw maybe a quick whap on the ass might help them.
Of course I'm picturing worst case scenario here.

Originally Posted by CT

I believe sometimes in dire situations that involve the safety of the child and results are required immediately than immeadiate physical action may be required. As a retribution for crimes? No, I think it only teaches them how to do it in such a way that you won't catch them-

Yeah, that's my whole point. Sometimes it may be the best way to deal with an action. You can't rule it out completely.

If you took a survey of people to see who was spanked as a child and who wasn't, I'm sure you'd find just as many Successful, law-abiding people who were spanked as you would those who had other means of discipline.
All the different techniques for raising children are more theories than anything else. There's no difinitive way that's "The Best". Some are obviously better than others though.

The beef I have is with the people who say "Absolutely no Spanking!!!!" and then not take the time to properly raise their child. Which results in those little shits who run around and scream in Restaurants and Museums.


I do agree with your thoughts on Parenting though. It seems like you've put a lot of thought into it. And it mostly makes sense.


*****|
EDIT:

Originally Posted by Equilizer

I voted NO. When I was a young lad I used to get a good beating at least once a day. I deserved it more than not. A child has to know who the boss is just like the family pet. If they sense weakness in anyway they will take advantage of it. A big can of whoop ass is an essential part of growing childs diet.

And here is the Strongest Case Against Spanking children.

*****
EDIT #2

Originally Posted by Nu Kua

...my daughter once dashed across the street and yes I did spank her then. I figured, better a pain from a Mama's spanking than to be hit by a car. Since she had never received a spanking before, getting one shocked her into realizing just how serious it was to run out in the street.

Yeah, That's exactly what I was thinking.

So did it work? Has she ever done that again?

[Skygirl]

I don't think that everyone will ever agree on the proper way to discipline a child. I never spanked my kids. My older son is a responsible law abiding young man, my younger son has had a number of issues including drug abuse. I was spanked and I turned out fine (mostly).

If the law is passed it is going to overburden the already taxed department of social services. More kids are going to slip through the cracks. One of the kids I work with suffers from severe head trauma because his mother slammed him against a concrete floor when he was two. One of the girls I worked with at Brightside was assaulted by her mothers boyfriend with a curling iron. Thankfully the abuse was recognized and the children were removed. Those are only two examples of many. How many kids being subject to serious abuse are going to have to suffer if families are investigated for spanking?

[Devon]

Spanking seems primitive. Why should a physical stress on your authority be your immediate impulse? We should be able to notify our children of their wrong doing through communication. Or maybe you could put out a cigarette on their hand, or cut the circulation off to their head for a couple minutes.
Your boss doesn't spank you, does he? If your child isn't getting it, it's up to you to help them get it. Hitting a child is the result of not knowing how to deal, and is therefore an essential factor in your childs misbehavior. It's not like little Tommy says a curse word and then gets an ice cream sundae. He doesn't need to be bent over a knee either. There are solutions to these issues. Issues we have that are a 'societal norm'.. as is the concept of spanking children. It doesn't need to be done..I don't believe it is justifiable.

[Assassin X]

I know myself the only reason I side with spanking is because todays methods don't make any sense. Being a friend to your child teaches them what?

If tommy doesn't like dinner and throws his plate and glass on the floor and it breaks and food and drink is everywhere and he is having a tantrum you can tell him to hes not getting any dinner maybe or to help clean it up..etc. But if he refuses and get even worse then these are the two scenarios:

A (Todays Method): Tell him its okay, be his friend and give in. Some say then you give him wants he want or talk to him and once again give in....basically the point being let him win.

B (Spanking): Since this situation is severe you tell tell him to help you clean it up. If he refuses you tell him thats all hes getting if hes not going to help clean it up (thats up to you...some people actually starve their children). Assuming he just gets worse then you would do one quick spank and thats it. Although I don't really know if this is really a sever enough situation but I made up for the point.

With method A the child learns you will never punish him and he can do whatever he wants and mostly can still do whatever he pleases. Not to mention if he doesn't have to do anything like clean it up your not teaching him responsibility. And lets also not forget by being a "Friend" first your not teaching them to have some respect. Theres time to be friends and times to respect what your parents say.

With Method B they learn they aren't going to have their way all the time. They learn to listen to what people are saying. They learn to cleanup in this situation for example.

To me theres no horrible damaging effect of being spanked. Yes if you were in a abused family and they over used the method then obviously thats diffrent. But if its use ONLY when things are so out of hand that you have no choice then there won't be an problems and any that has been spanked properly knows this. All it is to you is a punishment because you did something really bad that you knew you shouldn't have.

As for things like:

If the law is passed it is going to overburden the already taxed department of social services.

I am really half and half on social services. To me they have shi**y rules. I am by NO means saying they aren't a great service. But for every child that gets taken out of a horrible home there are always children that gets taken out of a home that didn't need to be because between nosy idiots and social services the system is corrupt like most "goverment" things such as our law system (whos really innocent, whos really guilty?).

I've seen people who have a disabled child and raise them perfectly fine, mind you they go to seminars about their child's disability and everything and even go to support groups and what not and because a nosy neighbor that knows nothing about the disability and doesn't even have children thinks its abuse they come out, think what they see is wrong and take the child away from a loving family that is taking care of them.

If spanking is banned I fear alot of innocent children will get taken away beacuse everyone will be big mouthed morons just because they disagree with someones parenting. Why fix whats been done forever? It will be another thing of real abusers get their kids taken away but innocent kids get hurt in the end too and taken away from loving families.

Another reason I'd rather not have children. Everyone wants to tell you how to live your life, raise your child, work your job, do this, do that. Its crazy. Thats why as much I hate Perf right now at least we both can't wait for Armageddon. Least of peoples problems will be worrying about what someone else is doing.

[DontBeAfraid]

AssX if you arent going to read others responses to threads before posting then Im not going to read yours.

[Skygirl]

Here is the proposed bill -

http://www.mass.gov/legis/bills/hous...df/ht03922.pdf

12 The provisions of this section shall not preclude any adult from
13 using incidental or minor physical contact designed to maintain
14 order and control, or other discipline which does not constitute cor-
15 poral punishment.

There's a big difference between 'incidental or minor physical contact' and beating your kids. This seems a bit more logical than no physical contact period. What concerns me is the last part of the sentence. It is too broad. Does this mean that parents can verbally abuse their children? Verbal and emotional abuse are damaging as well.

There is nothing in the bill regarding educating parents about non-violent alternatives, nor is there anything about re-training social services and other child advocates to better recognize abuse.

Simply oulawing excessive corporal punishment is not going to prevent the cycle from continueing.

[Skygirl]

Originally Posted by Assassin X

I am really half and half on social services. To me they have shi**y rules. I am by NO means saying they aren't a great service. But for every child that gets taken out of a horrible home there are always children that gets taken out of a home that didn't need to be because between nosy idiots and social services the system is corrupt like most "goverment" things such as our law system (whos really innocent, whos really guilty?).

I've seen people who have a disabled child and raise them perfectly fine, mind you they go to seminars about their child's disability and everything and even go to support groups and what not and because a nosy neighbor that knows nothing about the disability and doesn't even have children thinks its abuse they come out, think what they see is wrong and take the child away from a loving family that is taking care of them.

If spanking is banned I fear alot of innocent children will get taken away beacuse everyone will be big mouthed morons just because they disagree with someones parenting. Why fix whats been done forever? It will be another thing of real abusers get their kids taken away but innocent kids get hurt in the end too and taken away from loving families.

The department of social services needs some serious improvements, there is no doubt about that. There are children removed from homes due to lack of education or facts on social services part. A friend of mine had his daughter removed because he refused to allow her to take psychotropic medication. The medication perscribed was an anti-depressant that had the potential side effect of suicide. The child is an adolescent cheyenne girl. Children with the highest suicide rate in the country? Adolescent indian kids. His daughter was placed in a foster home because of this and now she is missing. She fell through the cracks...they LOST HER. He hasn't spoken to his daughter since November and hasn't seen her since I believe October. Then there are the children of abuse that never make it to social services due to the negligence of individuals in the position of being advocates because they don't want to get involved or feel it isn't their problem.

WOW (^^,) how nice to see and feel That we are all concern and eagerly explaining wisely and not throwing muds and rocks...YATADE.... I love all your explanation it makes me my heart cry and work hard....My heavy hands was change into a GAY HAND (^^,) LOL

[Smoke]

I got an extemtion cord licked over y ass multiple times when I fucked around and it sure tought me how to be bad without getting caught.

[Assassin X]

AssX if you arent going to read others responses to threads before posting then Im not going to read yours.

Um....huh? Being a little but more explanatory might be useful. Responses here? Somewhere else?