Should people care about someones "morals" in a video game?

[Assassin X]

So this is a weird subject. In real life people care about others morals (even if it doesn't affect them for some reason). And now it seems people seem to care about peoples morals in video games.

A blip for those who are....not so video game savvy:
In a good amount of games today you can take various ways about situations. One such game is called Mass Effect.

Lets say you are talking to a shady person whos selling stuff at bad prices. You could choose to be bad and rough him up or evne kill him (thus earning you points toward your "bad side"). You could also just be nice and talk some sense into him (thus earning you good points towards your good side). These points through the game add up and determine how good or bad you are overall and in some games can change many situations you will encounter and how people will act towards you. Also I should point you will often have other choices besides good/bad such as "grey territory". Stuff that might earn you both good and bad points.

Now theres no wrong way to play these games. They are designed so you can play how you want. The game will just play out according to your every action. And sometimes maybe your actions might not get you what your expected. In the end you buy these games to play them how you want. You make your characters, buy your items, choose your path, choose your answers....its all about you. As mentioned...there is no wrong way to play.

With that said on to the subject at hand (may contain small spoilers for Mass Effect 2) which takes place in a fictional future where we travel space and aliens are common place:

Friend 1:
I've been playing a game called Mass Effect 2. Its a little more darker then the first game was. Well two people I know are mad at me for decisions I have made in the game...I mean...REALLY mad.

For instance. One friend whos a "Holier then thou!". and doesn't like hurting innocent people seen me play and during one mission I had a choice. I was chasing after a guy who was pretty evil. Well I was in this factory that was blowing up and stuff. My choice was to keep persuing him and get him so he will be stopped OR help the people get out of the factory so they don't burn alive in it (from a previous incident from the man).

I chose to peruse him and let the people perish. My friend thought that was pretty horrible. Then as I ran through the factory pursuing this guy still you hear the people trapped in the factory dying. My friend snapped and said I was an evil person for even sitting there with a straight face while people were dying.

Uh? For one its a game. Not real. Second I play my games as if it was really me...since you know...thats the point. If I was confronted with this situation I would do the same. Stopping an evil man from doing more evil is much more of a priority then 30+ lives. I thought of it as a sacrifice in order to achieve justice. I told my friend who was visibly shaken (no joke) that if I didn't stop this man and instead rescued the people...what if he ended up killing more people and kept going on and on? Then 30+ lives wouldn't have been such a bad sacrifice. He didn't know what to say. Needless to say he left later not really in a good mood.

So...thats friend 1.

Friend 2:
This friend is more reasonable and a little more like me. So I was shocked when he got mad about this next thing. On my ship in the game is a girl named Jack. Probably in her 20s. As a little girl she was kept as a prisoner and they did REALLY cruel shit to her amongst other things. I'll just say its a billion times worse then any prision you'd see on earth...and its made for these biotic kids. >.<

I should note in this game some people have "biotic powers". Aka they can do cool shit. So anyways. Shes a pretty cold hearted person and hard to get through to her. You have to take her on a mission to blow up the facility where they kept her.

So as I was playing (with friend watching) we came to a part where this guy (can't remember exactly who he was or what he was doing) was confronted by Jack, I want to say he was responsible for what went on to Jack. I can't remember the first part of the conversation but basically you have a few options.

Good = "Turn the man in and let him pay for his crimes!"
Bad = "He deserves to die!"

Well I chose "He deserves to die!". I can't remember if I do or my character does but one of us pulls a gun out and shoots him in the head. Then my character with a happy overtone says "A bullet in the head solves all your problems!" My friend looks at me and says "Dude your fucked up...I mean... thats fucking sick man." While we were fine later in the day he still seemed a little miffed about what I did.

I want to say though I totally disagree with what my character says. True I think the guy deserved to die. But I didn't agree with my character said. Even though ym friend understood I didn't agree with that he didn't like that I took this cold hearted killer Jack and taught her its ok to kill people to solve your problems. This is the point where I thought "Its a game!" Course the question is..would I still do this in real life? Possibly. I care about justice. So I probably still would have made the same decision. And if she was taught that then oh well. Or perhaps I would have had her leave and come back and killed him so she wouldn't learn that lesson. I'd just lie and say I turned him into the authorities. Please lets not analyze this. >.<

Lastly:
I do find it funny how people react to games. Because many times what they think about one thing is not true when it comes to another. Take example "Friend 2". We played a gamed called Army of Two: 40th Day. The two of you are Mercs basically. Well in short shit goes down in massive city. Your trying to get out. Yadda yadda.

Well me AND my friend were evil in the game and he didn't seem to have a problem this time. And I'd think what we did would be more controversial then what I did in Mass Effect 2.

When we would come to enemies who had hostages we would have the enemies surrender, tie up the enemies then execute them how we please. Then free the hostages. Now in game you get money as soon as you do it. So as soon as we got the money we would shoot the hostages as they fled (obviously they would die). Don't ya think thats a little worse anything I said above? Yet his opinions seemed to have shifted lol. BTW in case your wondering why we did this. Its because money is money. If you want better gear you need money.

(spoilers)
This game also has "situations" where you had to make decisions. Such as shoot a white tiger and get money...or don't shoot it and get nothing. Obviously I shot it. Mind you in real life I never would. I didn't really want to in the game either. But I really needed an upgrade. And if I had no choice and was desperate for money (or just flat out HAD no choice) I would.

Another scene has you fighting with this russian merc. Well near the end he says he has "one last job". You see a woman in a closet. You have to decide to take his money which is 100k to walk away or kill him. Now in this game...a 100k was ALOT. And I took it. What I wish I could have done was taken it, then killed him anyways. But it wasn't a choice.

So I'm sure someone will read this and think thats horrible. But thats one situation in real life I also wouldn't let happen. HOWEVER you have to wonder.....would you walk away from something if someone offered you 100k? You might say never. But its easy to say now. But we all know none of us our rich and being offered that kind money to walk from something that doesn't involve you anyways is very easy to do.

[MaximumPain]

As a long time role player (you know D&D and other better games) where the main goal of the game is to get into character and act as you would imagine your character would act and not as you would I find it easy to get into a role. In real life I strive to be good to people and follow all reasonable laws of my society but in games I have no problem doing mildly evil things if it fits the story or character.

I played several of the Grand theft auto games and as one of the various characters I did some pretty despicable stuff and sometimes it does bother my conscience a bit but I write it off as just a game. As a funny aside I found that playing GTA and then going out and driving in real life was a bit surreal I had to remind myself to obey the traffic laws and not drive in the oncoming lane and run stop lights because I was in a hurry but nothing bad ever happen I never did drive crazy but the thought of it was a little unnerving. Id did tend to avoid some of the real bad stuff most of the time when I could like I never did the whole kill a hooker after receiving services deal but I did go on some rampages where a lot of innocents were hurt in the game. Some of the missions made me feel bad after killing someone or hurting innocents. Of course the other bad guys in the games I felt no remorse for (killing the first crime lord in vice city is pretty cool that a-hole got his that's for sure).

Another game that has some interesting choices is the Knights of the old republic series where your actions move you to the light or dark side and affect what force powers you will use by making things on the path you chose cheaper to use (evil people can cast more force lightning good people can heal for less cost ect). In that game you have a lot of choices to either be a prick and screw people or help them and if you wanted to try the dark side stuff you needed to hurt people in some pretty cruel ways. I found it hard to force myself to choose evil in those games and had to take a deep breath and just do it to see that side of the story.

For people that can see the games as just games I dont think its a problem but I worry about unstable people in the real world or those on drugs taking game decisions and turning them into real life mistakes.

Ive had some players characters in pen and paper games that I was running do some sick shit as well. One guy just decides to go on a murder spree killing innocents in the city. When the guards caught him he had a short trial and was executed in the city square . His fellow players who normally would have tired to rescue their companion at great personal risk just stood and watched as the executioners ax fell and chopped off his head (and I dont normally do resurrections in my games).
I really wanted the guards to get him and deliver justice I hope I was fair in my adjudication of the rules and NPC actions I was pretty upset at the player for all that.

[Demonskates]

you start putting morals into videogames, and the fun goes out the window.
fuck that..video games are an escape, where you can do things you just cant in real life.its the whole point.

[HungryHippo]

No russian

[one14am]

Tough call. I worked in the video game industry for 20 years. Video games are an escape. I liken it to kids playing with toy guns. Some parents dislike the idea of kids using toy guns. Well, it gives a kid a sense of empowerment he/she would not otherwise have 8in their limited world. It is not a bad thing.

What might be considered bad is positively rewarding negative social behavior in games. Granted, doing things you might not otherwise do in real life can be acceptable in game play, but to constantly reward bad behavior, especially harmful illegal behavior, has been shown to have ill effects on society.

Constant 1st person shooter games increase a kids skills in many ways and are now more accepted. However, add in moral aspects, and positively reinforce negative behavior, and those behaviors tend to come out in real life. Kids in larger cities carry guns and have no regard for life. They use those weapons like they are playing a game that has no consequences and no regard for other people.

There is a fine line in gaming. I chose what I work on in the industry and have been happy with it so for. Lots of number 1 games and one in the Smithsonian. I figure people can also chose what they play.

[3rDShifT]

Hmm, I used to like to play Postal2, where you can piss a stream of fire on someone. Or put a cat on the end of your rifle and blow it to smithereens. Or you can "assassinate" Gary Coleman"!

Nah, I don't think morals matter you SOB! ;)

[one14am]

Pissing a stream of fire is silly and should definitely be in the acceptable range. Especially if you get to piss on Gary Coleman.

[Assassin X]

Postal is awesome lol. Its made to be controversial.

[3rDShifT]

Originally Posted by one14am

Pissing a stream of fire is silly and should definitely be in the acceptable range. Especially if you get to piss on Gary Coleman.

IDK about acceptable LOL. You can throw scissors at people, dress up as a gimp, throw cow heads at people (that release poisonous fumes, and make people vomit blood!) and if you piss on Coleman, he starts launchin' Nades at you! LOL! It's retardedly fun, and I miss it. But it's a long fuckin' way from q*bert!!!!!! Har Har!

[bluenose_ian]

It depends who is playing the games.

What I hate the most is COD series is 18+ and you got some little kid screamin down the microphone at you.

Kid you shouldnt be playing the game.

I am from another generation, when I was a kid, we had nice games like bat n ball on the Atari or my ZX spectrum with games that didnt have much or any violence in them.

If your a normal Adult who plays the games that are really violent, no probs.

Kids, go play ball in the park or something and have a good life and let us losers play the violent games.

[Assassin X]

lol Ian. But yeah. Course not sure if I am normal...hmm.

Ever try telling a kid about an Atari? My cousin seen video of someone playing one and said it looked lame. I should have thrown him into next week. lol. Course it came out right after I was born. But needless to say my parents let me play it when I was a baby...well...if babies technically can even play such things. I remember pong, frogger, galaga, pitfall...etc. Kick ass games.

Course I also remember going outside. I never see kids do that today. You ask when they went to a park and they give you this look like "Whats a park?". >.<

[bluenose_ian]

lol Ian. But yeah. Course not sure if I am normal...hmm.

LMAO

Only you could come out with this AssX..

Im sure you are normal, its not like your gonna flip out over a few games are you?
plus with all the other things you said about atari and kids not knowing a park, sounds normal to me.

[Assassin X]

As much as I claim to be not normal...I am. I just have some...uh.. very odd "side effects". *cough*

[Cartesiantheater]

Originally Posted by Assassin X

So this is a weird subject. In real life people care about others morals (even if it doesn't affect them for some reason). And now it seems people seem to care about peoples morals in video games.

A blip for those who are....not so video game savvy:
In a good amount of games today you can take various ways about situations. One such game is called Mass Effect.

Lets say you are talking to a shady person whos selling stuff at bad prices. You could choose to be bad and rough him up or evne kill him (thus earning you points toward your "bad side"). You could also just be nice and talk some sense into him (thus earning you good points towards your good side). These points through the game add up and determine how good or bad you are overall and in some games can change many situations you will encounter and how people will act towards you. Also I should point you will often have other choices besides good/bad such as "grey territory". Stuff that might earn you both good and bad points.

Now theres no wrong way to play these games. They are designed so you can play how you want. The game will just play out according to your every action. And sometimes maybe your actions might not get you what your expected. In the end you buy these games to play them how you want. You make your characters, buy your items, choose your path, choose your answers....its all about you. As mentioned...there is no wrong way to play.

With that said on to the subject at hand (may contain small spoilers for Mass Effect 2) which takes place in a fictional future where we travel space and aliens are common place:

Friend 1:
I've been playing a game called Mass Effect 2. Its a little more darker then the first game was. Well two people I know are mad at me for decisions I have made in the game...I mean...REALLY mad.

For instance. One friend whos a "Holier then thou!". and doesn't like hurting innocent people seen me play and during one mission I had a choice. I was chasing after a guy who was pretty evil. Well I was in this factory that was blowing up and stuff. My choice was to keep persuing him and get him so he will be stopped OR help the people get out of the factory so they don't burn alive in it (from a previous incident from the man).

I chose to peruse him and let the people perish. My friend thought that was pretty horrible. Then as I ran through the factory pursuing this guy still you hear the people trapped in the factory dying. My friend snapped and said I was an evil person for even sitting there with a straight face while people were dying.

Uh? For one its a game. Not real. Second I play my games as if it was really me...since you know...thats the point. If I was confronted with this situation I would do the same. Stopping an evil man from doing more evil is much more of a priority then 30+ lives. I thought of it as a sacrifice in order to achieve justice. I told my friend who was visibly shaken (no joke) that if I didn't stop this man and instead rescued the people...what if he ended up killing more people and kept going on and on? Then 30+ lives wouldn't have been such a bad sacrifice. He didn't know what to say. Needless to say he left later not really in a good mood.

So...thats friend 1.

Friend 2:
This friend is more reasonable and a little more like me. So I was shocked when he got mad about this next thing. On my ship in the game is a girl named Jack. Probably in her 20s. As a little girl she was kept as a prisoner and they did REALLY cruel shit to her amongst other things. I'll just say its a billion times worse then any prision you'd see on earth...and its made for these biotic kids. >.<

I should note in this game some people have "biotic powers". Aka they can do cool shit. So anyways. Shes a pretty cold hearted person and hard to get through to her. You have to take her on a mission to blow up the facility where they kept her.

So as I was playing (with friend watching) we came to a part where this guy (can't remember exactly who he was or what he was doing) was confronted by Jack, I want to say he was responsible for what went on to Jack. I can't remember the first part of the conversation but basically you have a few options.

Good = "Turn the man in and let him pay for his crimes!"
Bad = "He deserves to die!"

Well I chose "He deserves to die!". I can't remember if I do or my character does but one of us pulls a gun out and shoots him in the head. Then my character with a happy overtone says "A bullet in the head solves all your problems!" My friend looks at me and says "Dude your fucked up...I mean... thats fucking sick man." While we were fine later in the day he still seemed a little miffed about what I did.

I want to say though I totally disagree with what my character says. True I think the guy deserved to die. But I didn't agree with my character said. Even though ym friend understood I didn't agree with that he didn't like that I took this cold hearted killer Jack and taught her its ok to kill people to solve your problems. This is the point where I thought "Its a game!" Course the question is..would I still do this in real life? Possibly. I care about justice. So I probably still would have made the same decision. And if she was taught that then oh well. Or perhaps I would have had her leave and come back and killed him so she wouldn't learn that lesson. I'd just lie and say I turned him into the authorities. Please lets not analyze this. >.<

Lastly:
I do find it funny how people react to games. Because many times what they think about one thing is not true when it comes to another. Take example "Friend 2". We played a gamed called Army of Two: 40th Day. The two of you are Mercs basically. Well in short shit goes down in massive city. Your trying to get out. Yadda yadda.

Well me AND my friend were evil in the game and he didn't seem to have a problem this time. And I'd think what we did would be more controversial then what I did in Mass Effect 2.

When we would come to enemies who had hostages we would have the enemies surrender, tie up the enemies then execute them how we please. Then free the hostages. Now in game you get money as soon as you do it. So as soon as we got the money we would shoot the hostages as they fled (obviously they would die). Don't ya think thats a little worse anything I said above? Yet his opinions seemed to have shifted lol. BTW in case your wondering why we did this. Its because money is money. If you want better gear you need money.

(spoilers)
This game also has "situations" where you had to make decisions. Such as shoot a white tiger and get money...or don't shoot it and get nothing. Obviously I shot it. Mind you in real life I never would. I didn't really want to in the game either. But I really needed an upgrade. And if I had no choice and was desperate for money (or just flat out HAD no choice) I would.

Another scene has you fighting with this russian merc. Well near the end he says he has "one last job". You see a woman in a closet. You have to decide to take his money which is 100k to walk away or kill him. Now in this game...a 100k was ALOT. And I took it. What I wish I could have done was taken it, then killed him anyways. But it wasn't a choice.

So I'm sure someone will read this and think thats horrible. But thats one situation in real life I also wouldn't let happen. HOWEVER you have to wonder.....would you walk away from something if someone offered you 100k? You might say never. But its easy to say now. But we all know none of us our rich and being offered that kind money to walk from something that doesn't involve you anyways is very easy to do.

Do you remember that game Fable (the first one)?

I used to go around beating the children for shits and giggles. God, it was funny. Rumor started to spread and kids would run away from me when I got near.

... of course, being bigger and faster, I'd just chase them down and beat the shit out of them some more.


So... fucking... funny...






Do I beat children in real life? Hell no. That would be fucking sick. But is it funny to punch an 8 year old VIDEO GAME character in the face? Hell yeah.






I do evil deeds in all of the open ended video games. I usually do plenty of good deeds too, but the evil ones are always great comic relief.





On Way Of Samurai (for PS2), I'll walk around and "accidentally" bump into another dude, who will suddenly get pissed. I promptly kill him. Or is some random Samurai from another clan insults me, he gets cut down quick.

One particular scene in that game involves a girl begging you to save her potential husband (who has tried to infiltrate one of the clans' mansions). If you select the right responses to her, you'll be given the opportunity to agree to tell her you'll save him if she gives something to you. You can say,"

(a) Money... I mean money. Her response is neutral.

(b) Have my meal ready (which is an inside joke, because at the beginning of the game she offers you a meal at her restaurant for saving her), and this actually makes her very happy.

(c) Spend one night with me. She is clearly unhappy with this response. She say, "I see." After you save the guy, they just disappear. It is not clear if you ever make her hold up her end of the bargain.

Clearly the most fun is option (c).





The point is that video games are not reality. They are entertainment, and they are not nearly as serious as the situations they depict would be if they happened in real life.




For example, here is a horrendous example of animal cruelty in a video game:



Well, that is an artist's rendition of what is a very useful life-saving trick in Super Mario World.



Here is another example of animal cruelty. Mario is fucking throwing FIREBALLS at turtles! Clearly that is REPREHENSIBLE!





In fact, if video games really were as serious as real life you should see this every time you turn on Super Mario Bros.:





* yeah I've been wanting to post those two fanarts for a long time

[phedrereine]

Originally Posted by Cartesiantheater

I used to go around beating the children for shits and giggles. God, it was funny. Rumor started to spread and kids would run away from me when I got near.

... of course, being bigger and faster, I'd just chase them down and beat the shit out of them some more.

LOL.

You know, sometimes the most creative and visually interesting games are totally worthless without a fulfillment of destruction, recklessness or otherwise supernatural empowerment and misbehavior. It is a fake experience, after all, so you can only take it so seriously.

I'm most reminded of this skiing game I used to play way back when... It got to the point where every time I played, I would just have to violently crash my skier into another one, or (my favorite) veer straight into the barricade wall along the course. The auditory effects of grunting and thumping as they hit the wall and rolled down the hill were priceless. I would have tears in my eyes from laughing.

Why would you want to be bound by the same limitations and morality that you have in real life in a fake graphic world that's ultimately meaningless? If you are in an unreal world, it should follow that your responsive behavior within it will sometimes be unreal, as well. It's for comedy's sake, usually, or for stress relief. And in itself, there's nothing wrong with that...

[3rDShifT]

Originally Posted by Assassin X

As much as I claim to be not normal...I am. I just have some...uh.. very odd "side effects". *cough*

Dude, we already knew that.

[GamerGal]

Bioshock. I first chose save the Little Sisters. Second time through I chose rip their guts out. I felt unnerved by it, but did it.

Heavy Rain Demo. First time I played through I tried being nice with the hooker, didn't get me answers. Next time I was rough. But at the end of that scene you can either go back and save her from being beaten by a client or walk away. I swear that second time I would just walk away when I started playing but I couldn't. Even though it was just a game character I couldn't let her be hurt.

So morals in a video game may not affect the real world, but real world morals can effect game world morals.

[ecosikz]

Fuck No! :/ I'll dis a mutha fuka! bitchs can't take it? fuck em. >.>

[DontBeAfraid]

So morals in a video game may not affect the real world, but real world morals can effect game world morals.

Its silly but in GTA4 when given a choice as it related to the story I always choose to be a good guy... I just cant execute the people who dont deserve it. But right after being the good guy as it relates to the story I have no problem at all taking the bat to random people as the cross the street... Its an internal disconnect.

[Cartesiantheater]

Originally Posted by DontBeAfraid

Its silly but in GTA4 when given a choice as it related to the story I always choose to be a good guy... I just cant execute the people who dont deserve it. But right after being the good guy as it relates to the story I have no problem at all taking the bat to random people as the cross the street... Its an internal disconnect.

Have you ever read Terry Prachett's "Reaper Man?"

Not only does your avatar match it, but your personality and judgment style does too. You'd make a wonderful DEATH.

[Volkan]

hmm interesting topic. video games are an escape and I personally play them to get as far away from reality as possible. but i do know certain people that play games with morals, especcialy games like WOW