Obama Cancels further Moon Missions.

[James Random]

Obama has cancelled any further moon missions for the time being, as well as indefinitely cancelling the Aries 1 Project.

Because moon landings isn't communism.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/8565243.stm

[Cartesiantheater]

Originally Posted by James Random

Obama has cancelled any further moon missions for the time being, as well as indefinitely cancelling the Aries 1 Project.

Because moon landings isn't communism.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/8565243.stm

Because moon landings aren't communism...


You used the plural of "landing."

[JenaS62]

For once I agree with him. We are broke. We are not going to be able to relocate to the moon any time soon - so why keep going there? Seems like a huge waste of money. Besides it appears that the healthcare bill will pass and they should direct the moon mission money to that instead. Will they? I doubt it, but it makes sense.

[GamerGal]

As much as I love NASA and space travel... We went to the moon. How about Mars? Or outside of the inner solar system? Jupiter has plenty of moons.
But as for not funding it, he funds the military, the world's largest Socialist program in the world, but when he funds some thing else like building/repairing roads in America people lose a heart valve over it. Now you are complaining he ISN'T spending money? Wha???

[pico]

What about using the moon for comercial profit, as in taking the materials found there and shiping them back for national profit. I am all in favor of using space exploration to make money. How's about the first lunar mining company?

[GamerGal]

Pico, it costs MILLIONS per laucnh, and that is just going to the ISS. Unless they have baby unicorn brain on the Moon IDK of any material that would make a profit.

[Cartesiantheater]

Originally Posted by pico

What about using the moon for comercial profit, as in taking the materials found there and shiping them back for national profit. I am all in favor of using space exploration to make money. How's about the first lunar mining company?

That's a long way off. Space travel is still too expensive. It would take many more years of investment before it can start paying off (we have a moon in our solar system that is covered in methane, for example).

Of course, the only way it will ever get cheaper is if we do MORE of it, so we are in a catch-22.

[lycanox]

We are technically not yet able to mine the moon. Even if they just went up there and shoveled as much lunar dust in the Lander as possible. By the time it would be back at earth, that useless dust would cost more than the average rare metal.

As for science. Going to the moon is interesting but it is not like we can expect mayor scientific breakthroughs here. I would rather see missions to Europe. Where all we have to do is drill through the ice and we may theoretically be greeted by intelligent lifeforms.

[Rabid1]

Originally Posted by lycanox

I would rather see missions to Europe. Where all we have to do is drill through the ice and we may theoretically be greeted by intelligent lifeforms.

I think the Fins and Swedes might take exception to us just digging around their ice and forget aboput the Russians..... ;)

[misterhamtastic]

Ah well, national pride and technological dominance are no big deal, right? It's ok when India starts their moon settlement and we don't, right?

[JenaS62]

Originally Posted by misterhamtastic

Ah well, national pride and technological dominance are no big deal, right? It's ok when India starts their moon settlement and we don't, right?

Sure, why not? Let them spend all the money and do all the work and then we can go there and take it away from them.

[Cartesiantheater]

Originally Posted by misterhamtastic

Ah well, national pride and technological dominance are no big deal, right? It's ok when India starts their moon settlement and we don't, right?

Originally Posted by JenaS62

Sure, why not? Let them spend all the money and do all the work and then we can go there and take it away from them.

Misterhamtastic has a point. Allow me to introduce you to a historical lesson.


Once upon a time China was the most dominant nation on the planet. Westerners BOWED to the Emperor, and never looked upon his face, JUST to get permission to ASK for trade.

China was the Middle Kingdom.


During this time of Chinese dominance, China put more effort and resources into maritime exploration than any nation on Earth. They emphasized knowledge, they had extensive collections of books, libraries that were the envy of the rest of the world.



However, there came a point when leadership in China deemed that such sea expenses were a waste, and they grounded their maritime exploration projects.






Little did they know the cost.


Soon Westerners (Portugal, Spain, England) because to poor money into maritime technology.

They were forced to standardize languages regarding ship technology. They became acquainted with new exotic cultures. They stumbled upon sea going technologies that had hosts of applications, including military. They figured out ways of making a market out of sea travel...



Long story short, when China ENDED their sea exploration program and Europe STARTED theirs, CHINA went down down down and Europe when UP UP UP.










You also have a point though. We don't have enough money for it. So, we can either CANCEL the space program OR we can CUT SPENDING ELSEWHERE.

Originally Posted by JenaS62

Sure, why not? Let them spend all the money and do all the work and then we can go there and take it away from them.

That only works for so long. Essentially that's what we've been doing in the market for years, and it's starting to catch up with us. Simply raping the production of other nations EVENTUALLY becomes unsustainable. You have to be able to produce at least something.

[Prometheus]

Originally Posted by lycanox

We are technically not yet able to mine the moon. Even if they just went up there and shoveled as much lunar dust in the Lander as possible. By the time it would be back at earth, that useless dust would cost more than the average rare metal.

As for science. Going to the moon is interesting but it is not like we can expect mayor scientific breakthroughs here. I would rather see missions to Europe. Where all we have to do is drill through the ice and we may theoretically be greeted by intelligent lifeforms.

For once I have to agree with Lycanblox. Let's drill the Russians!!

Here's a drill:

[Lourwind]

Originally Posted by JenaS62

Sure, why not? Let them spend all the money and do all the work and then we can go there and take it away from them.

Wrong kind of attitude to be having.

If India or China gets there first, then that is just too bad. The moon is open for grabs. It is first in, first serve and if your country can't keep up then of course other countries will get there before you.

I find this whole thing odd. Ever since the Apollo missions, interest in space missions has gone down dramatically with the average public. The moment they get missions cut all together, everyone gets upset.

NASA had plenty of missions planned to several moons and planets, some manned, others robotic. They've all been cut due to the war in Iraq and debt. The moon isn't the only thing you've lost from the economic crash.

I think it is great that China and India are taking up the race to the moon. I just hope they find a new system on getting to the ISS at least for the purposes of repairs and medical/food supplies for people on board.

How much longer do the current launchers have before they're scrapped?

[Mezurashi]

hmm ... I wonder why the 'Paranoid Fringe' haven't chimed in yet with THE MOST OBVIOUS AND COMPELLING REASON TO KEEP A HOLD OF THE HIGH GROUND.

think of the Earth at the bottom of a huge funnel, that funnel is the Gravity Well.

examine the physics of the funnel, notice how stuff tends to roll down to Earth with little to no energy required to get it moving? but to get stuff up from Earth takes a LOT of energy ...

the Moon may not be a great resource base and all but notice how it's own Gravity Well funnel is much smaller than Earth's, thus much easier to get stuff up and over the edge?

Notice how the Moon's Gravity Well orbits Within the Earth's Gravity Well?

now ...

you have a competitive neighbour that you want to get one up on. you both live at the bottom of a valley. one day you notice your competitive neighbour building a homestead on the Top of the Valley Wall. and he's collecting a whole bunch of boulders up at the top alongside his new homestead.

and one day, after you've had a big argument, you notice your neighbour has moved to the top of the valley, and he seems to be Aiming those big boulders, moving them to the edge of the Wall all careful like ...

the Moon sits of the Valley Wall - and the Moon is comprised of a few trillion tonnes of boulders.

and Earth sits at the bottom of the well ...

has everyone suddenly decided that China is no longer a potential threat?

what is going on here? (and I mean amongst AO posters - god, all of you should have picked up on this aspect long ago)

[Lourwind]

Originally Posted by Mezurashi

hmm ... I wonder why the 'Paranoid Fringe' haven't chimed in yet with THE MOST OBVIOUS AND COMPELLING REASON TO KEEP A HOLD OF THE HIGH GROUND.

think of the Earth at the bottom of a huge funnel, that funnel is the Gravity Well.

examine the physics of the funnel, notice how stuff tends to roll down to Earth with little to no energy required to get it moving? but to get stuff up from Earth takes a LOT of energy ...

the Moon may not be a great resource base and all but notice how it's own Gravity Well funnel is much smaller than Earth's, thus much easier to get stuff up and over the edge?

Notice how the Moon's Gravity Well orbits Within the Earth's Gravity Well?

now ...

you have a competitive neighbour that you want to get one up on. you both live at the bottom of a valley. one day you notice your competitive neighbour building a homestead on the Top of the Valley Wall. and he's collecting a whole bunch of boulders up at the top alongside his new homestead.

and one day, after you've had a big argument, you notice your neighbour has moved to the top of the valley, and he seems to be Aiming those big boulders, moving them to the edge of the Wall all careful like ...

the Moon sits of the Valley Wall - and the Moon is comprised of a few trillion tonnes of boulders.

and Earth sits at the bottom of the well ...

has everyone suddenly decided that China is no longer a potential threat?

what is going on here? (and I mean amongst AO posters - god, all of you should have picked up on this aspect long ago)

It was obvious yes. China wants to get a leg up on America, and if it reaches the moon first it will. However, let us not forget that India is also in the race and possibly Russia (not sure or confirmed.)

[Mezurashi]

Originally Posted by Lourwind

It was obvious yes. China wants to get a leg up on America, and if it reaches the moon first it will. However, let us not forget that India is also in the race and possibly Russia (not sure or confirmed.)

and no matter who gets there first - they will be the first to build a railgun style launcher capable of accelerating multitonne payloads to Lunar escape velocity (much smaller than the one needed for Earth).

it doesn't matter who gets there first - what maters is who will be the first to start dropping rocks?

[Cartesiantheater]

Originally Posted by Mezurashi

and no matter who gets there first - they will be the first to build a railgun style launcher capable of accelerating multitonne payloads to Lunar escape velocity (much smaller than the one needed for Earth).

it doesn't matter who gets there first - what maters is who will be the first to start dropping rocks?

This is a good point. If we can find away to make a self-sustaining base and launch pad on the moon, space travel cost will go down quite a bit due to the relative ease of leaving the moon compared to leaving the earth.

[Assassin X]

But we still have to send people to the moon in order to send them from the moon to wherever or just to work there. Kind defeats the purpose. What about the ISS. Isn't that suppose to be the Space Station of the future? O.o

Either way we should focus on whats more important like Mars.

[MaximumPain]

We need to be working on a cheaper way to get into orbit first. Either a space plane that can achieve orbit without expensive and risky rocket boosters (possible soon) or a space elevator or bean stalk (more difficult but possible). No other nation is going to be able to place a base on the moon any time soon not even America.

[Mezurashi]

Originally Posted by MaximumPain

We need to be working on a cheaper way to get into orbit first. Either a space plane that can achieve orbit without expensive and risky rocket boosters (possible soon) or a space elevator or bean stalk (more difficult but possible). No other nation is going to be able to place a base on the moon any time soon not even America.

although I agree with you on the basic level there is a part of me that remembers that the world was explored using wooden ships powered for the most part by the winds -- thousands upon thousands perished over the centuries and the trouble, hardships, low probability of survival, brutal conditions and so forth have become the grist of many an historical adventure.

some of the most unlikely empires were formed by nations that had a strong seagoing presence and a wide network of colonies and bases.

when 'we' (children of the Western World so to speak) imagine a moon base we imagine something complex and shiny and so on, we can't help it, the world we live in looks that way (for the most part).

but what if you're bent on colonization and damn the hazards. like the European settlers who swarmed across North America in the 18th and 19th centuries there are other nations who see a foothold on the Moon for the 'blue sky' potential it offers (think in terms of the Garage Workshop for the Earth, the place that can get messed up in order to provide what we need back home). they don't care if they send their settlers up to live in empty fuel tanks with cobbled together air scrubbers and the next supply run due 'soon, we promise.'

the Moon could be colonized for cheap if we went at it like the Old Days - instead of trying to assure ourselves that the waterbed won't slosh too badly in Lunar gravity.

the paradigm of 'now' that one works under informs the paradigm of 'tomorrow.' and we live in different paradigms ...

[Cartesiantheater]

Originally Posted by Assassin X

But we still have to send people to the moon in order to send them from the moon to wherever or just to work there. Kind defeats the purpose.

In the beginning, yes. Eventually no, I would imagine full colonization is the next step. After that, how about a civil war for Lunar independence? Rotf.

[MaximumPain]

Originally Posted by Mezurashi

although I agree with you on the basic level there is a part of me that remembers that the world was explored using wooden ships powered for the most part by the winds -- thousands upon thousands perished over the centuries and the trouble, hardships, low probability of survival, brutal conditions and so forth have become the grist of many an historical adventure.

some of the most unlikely empires were formed by nations that had a strong seagoing presence and a wide network of colonies and bases.

when 'we' (children of the Western World so to speak) imagine a moon base we imagine something complex and shiny and so on, we can't help it, the world we live in looks that way (for the most part).

but what if you're bent on colonization and damn the hazards. like the European settlers who swarmed across North America in the 18th and 19th centuries there are other nations who see a foothold on the Moon for the 'blue sky' potential it offers (think in terms of the Garage Workshop for the Earth, the place that can get messed up in order to provide what we need back home). they don't care if they send their settlers up to live in empty fuel tanks with cobbled together air scrubbers and the next supply run due 'soon, we promise.'

the Moon could be colonized for cheap if we went at it like the Old Days - instead of trying to assure ourselves that the waterbed won't slosh too badly in Lunar gravity.

the paradigm of 'now' that one works under informs the paradigm of 'tomorrow.' and we live in different paradigms ...

All true. One problem is we don't even have the equivalent of wooden sailing ships yet all we have are canoes or even rafts.

I do see a day when we will need to take risks like you describe but it will be with the slow ships that travel to other star systems which is the real prize or new world if you will. We will need to improve our ability to survive in space first and colonizing the solar system is an obvious first step.

Shuttle launches are too expensive and risky to be able to support even a moon colony now and we have been putting off the real thing we need which is an orbital shuttle that is safe (relatively ) and reusable. The current shuttle was great 30 years ago but its obsolete and needs to be replaced.

[MaximumPain]

Of course this shit would be a lot easier if we didnt need to spend so much on the ability to kill each other and more on worrying about the fact that the universe wants to kill us and our entire biosphere (its just slow at getting to it). One unfortunate event and our party will be wiped and no number of aircraft carriers and ICBMs will help. We need to strive for space now and unite as the planet earth!

[Mezurashi]

Originally Posted by Cartesiantheater

In the beginning, yes. Eventually no, I would imagine full colonization is the next step. After that, how about a civil war for Lunar independence? Rotf.

have you read The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress by Robert A. Heinlein ? - one of the better novels that deals with this theme.

Originally Posted by MaximumPain

All true. One problem is we don't even have the equivalent of wooden sailing ships yet all we have are canoes or even rafts.

sure, but the whole Polynesian Exploration & Colonization thing comes to mind and also recall that the Vikings rowed across the northern Atlantic. and it was along this chain of 'make the attempt with inadequate equipment' that the improvements started being imagined and applied.

Originally Posted by MaximumPain

I do see a day when we will need to take risks like you describe but it will be with the slow ships that travel to other star systems which is the real prize or new world if you will. We will need to improve our ability to survive in space first and colonizing the solar system is an obvious first step.

but in order to learn how to deal with those kinds of 'one way trip' situations we would need to have gone through a 'history of errors' course in order to ensure the greatest probability of success. I'm not saying that going 'on the cheap' is the only way, just that it's one way that others might already be considering given their views on what amounts to 'excessive hazard' and such.

and again the colonization of the Solar System begins with a baby step. the ISS is just us getting serious after our brief flirts with Skylab and Mir. and consider that Mir, small and shitty though it was, stayed functioning for far longer than some Western 'experts' predicted possible. going to the Moon is the equivalent to pitching a pup tent in our backyard - colonizing the Moon is like turning the old garage out back into a 'private' room for a teenager.

the mistakes we learn from on the Moon will inform our steps further out. and the Moon is 'conveniently' close compared to everything else around.

Originally Posted by MaximumPain

Shuttle launches are too expensive and risky to be able to support even a moon colony now and we have been putting off the real thing we need which is an orbital shuttle that is safe (relatively ) and reusable. The current shuttle was great 30 years ago but its obsolete and needs to be replaced.

the Shuttle was a grand gesture made at a time when our collective optimism blinded our rationality somewhat (think of the 'fashions' of New Wave and shudder). I don't see the Shuttle as a FAIL - rather I see it as a Failed Attempt, an overreach, something about 50 - 100 years ahead of our technology curve (in terms of the original 'concept' proposal). but even though it was out of our reach It Worked Long Enough For Us To Figure This Out. the Shuttle was the Great Big Kludge That Worked For A While ... and in a broader sense the entire NASA Space Program could be described that way.

the problem now is that we've not started utilizing the availability of an orbital platform to the fullest. the ISS could be a flying staging area, in fact there's plans for that if there's anyone willing to fund it in the future. we were supposed to build the Mars Exploratory Vessel up there and all that stuff. but we're not because this kind of stuff costs giga, tera, really really really large amounts of resources and investment.

other nations have noted the Shuttle's demise and are sticking to the Roman Candle program for now, the most efficient (in the short term) way to loft things like satellites and food for the ISS into NEO. I'd like to see a space plane that'd work ... I'd also like to see an orbital retirement home/hospital where you could choose which 'gravity' ring you lived in depending on your physical ability (I'm thinking centrifugal 'gravity' via spinning).