God: What Are His Triats As Seen From Induction and/or Deduction

[Cartesiantheater]

* Misspelled "traits" in the title for some reason.


Essentially this thread is like a game. Based upon certain rules we will follow, what characteristics can we ascertain about God if we start with an assumption that God exists. This thread is for the enjoyment of theology, metaphysics. Post in this thread because you enjoy the topic.



In order for this thread to accomplish its aim, you MUST follow the rules.

What we are doing is starting with an initial assumption, and then using either logical derivations from the starting assumption OR things we can logically infer from observations about the universe. I am hoping this will lead to an interesting conversation. The rules are as follows:

Rule # 1:

You MUST in some way include the assumption that GOD EXISTS (whether as an attempt to prove he doesn't by negation, or as a final hypothesis you attempt to prove).

Rule # 2:

Testimony, hearsay, and special revelation are NOT ALLOWED as absolutely true assumptions in and of themselves. These can be conditional statements only.

Rule # 3:

Rules of inference must be followed (this means only things that are LOGICALLY POSSIBLE are allowed). For example, if you derive the following:
R^~R (this means R and not R), then you have arrived at a negation (also known as reductio ad absurdum - for you atheists wanting to prove that God DOESN'T exist under certain parameters, starting with the initial assumption that God exists would mean you are doing a proof by negation that he doesn't. Likewise, theists can start with the assumption that God does not exist, so log as their final conclusion is that God exists.)

So, see what you can find out about God doing this.


As an example:

Initial assumptions:

1. God exists
2. God is all powerful (with the exception of the logically impossible, as per the rules)

Therefore, God is all knowing.

Does the conclusion follow?

Well, IF God is all powerful, then COULD he not decide to NOT know everything? And could he not ACT upon that?

Therefore the conclusion does not follow.



Or you could go this route:

1. God exists
2. God is either purely good or purely evil (which is it?).
3. God created the universe and indirectly or directly created everything in it.
4. Everything God directly created he deliberately created.

Likewise

5. Everything God indirectly created he did not deliberately create.

What can you figure out from the above? Can we determine whether or not God is purely good or purely evil from the above assumptions and a few others we make along the way?


* First of all, you know that God is either directly or indirectly responsible for the existence of evil (evil is an observation of the universe), from # 2.

* Next, since you know that if there is anything God created indirectly (#5), he did not deliberately create it, you know that he is not all knowing or not all powerful, or both. So you can add a new postulate:

6. It is the case that God is not all powerful or not all knowing, or both.
(In math/logic, this is written as (~P ∨ ~R), i.e. not P or not R (also both is included in the mathematical formalism of "or")- You don't need to know this or the symbols, just be logical)

* Therefore if God IS all powerful, then you know for certain that God is NOT all knowing by #5 and #6, therefore you have a new postulate:

7. If God is all powerful, then God is NOT all knowing (P ⇒ ~Q would be the shorthand for writing this, with P being God is all powerful and Q being God is all knowing, and ~ meaning "not"). From #5 and #6.

Now you can make an assumption:

8. God IS all powerful. A new assumption.

9. God is NOT all knowing (From #7 and #8)

* From #2 (God is either purely good or purely evil), #4 and #5 (anything God indirectly creates wasn't deliberate and vice versa), #8 (God is all powerful), and #9 (God is not all knowing) you can conclude that:

10. Either the creation of evil was a result of God's lack of knowledge or was deliberate. (because purely good all powerful God would not be required to create evil for a greater good, and a purely good God would always take the path of least deliberate, knowing evil- which for an all powerful being is NO deliberate, knowing evil, therefore it must have been a result of lack of knowledge)

* But now from #10, you know that likewise

11. If evil was deliberate, then good was a result of God's lack of knowledge (because purely evil all powerful God would not be required to create good for a greater evil, and a purely evil God would always take the path of least deliberate, knowing good- which for an all powerful being is NO deliberate, knowing good, therefore it must have been a result of lack of knowledge)

* But if God is ALL POWERFUL, then he had the OPTION of being all knowing. Therefore we can conclude one more thing:

12. If God is pure good, he was not wise enough to take the necessary action to prevent evil, and if God is pure evil, he was not wise enough to take the action necessary to prevent good.

So, what I have derived? I have derived that IF God is purely good, and IF God created everything, and IF God is all powerful and if it is NOT the case that God is all knowing, then God is not WISE.


So essentially I have an All Good, All Powerful, UNWISE God (if I assume he is all good).







Change some assumptions and you will probably get something else. Anyone else want to play?


(somehow I suspect this thread will be ignored, or if it isn't, the rules of it will be violated)

[Cherisa]

Oh GOD!
Now, how do we play?

(in other words can you make it a bit simpler?)
I mean I'd like to play,but, the game looks difficult.

[Cherisa]

So, if we assume there's a God, then if God created evil does that make him evil? Or did he create evil as a balance in a duelistic universe?
If so does evil have a purpose?

[Cartesiantheater]

Originally Posted by Cherisa

So, if we assume there's a God, then if God created evil does that make him evil?

No, not necessarily. The point of the "game" is to determine which hypothetical circumstances would lead to a YES as the answer to that question and which would lead to a NO as the answer to that question.

Originally Posted by Cherisa

Or did he create evil as a balance in a duelistic universe?
If so does evil have a purpose?

Keep going... (now you're playing )

[Godsgifttomankind]

Hello Cartesiantheater and thank-you for the challenge,

I'll play

1) God Exists
2) God is all knowing
3) God is all seeing
4) God is all wise
5) God is all good
6) God is the creator of all that exists
7) God is all powerful

therefore 8) all that is created is subservient to God.

Originally Posted by Cartesiantheater

First of all, you know that God is either directly or indirectly responsible for the existence of evil (evil is an observation of the universe)

If #5 and #6 are true then 9) all that God created is good.

Is it possible that our observation could be wrong?

Originally Posted by Cartesiantheater

10. Either the creation of evil was a result of God's lack of knowledge or was deliberate. (because purely good all powerful God would not be required to create evil for a greater good, and a purely good God would always take the path of least deliberate, knowing evil- which for an all powerful being is NO deliberate, knowing evil, therefore it must have been a result of lack of knowledge)

What if the lack of knowledge is on the part of men, who do not see the whole picture?

Originally Posted by Cartesiantheater

11. If evil was deliberate, then good was a result of God's lack of knowledge (because purely evil all powerful God would not be required to create good for a greater evil, and a purely evil God would always take the path of least deliberate, knowing good- which for an all powerful being is NO deliberate, knowing good, therefore it must have been a result of lack of knowledge)

Examining the 8 examples that I have put forth, it is clear that your 10 and 11 are clearly illogical and impossible and as such the next step in the game means a very clear need to examine our own perspectives of the universe.

Your move!

[Traveler]

God is
Everything in existence is a result of Gods creation
God is still in the process of creating
Both Good and bad exist
Nothing happens that God does not know about in advance

There fore God must work with both good and bad deliberately.

If God is still involved in creating then he must be working to an end purpose.

The conflict between good and bad must be required for the achievement of that end purpose.

We do not know the end purpose so we cannot understand the reason for the good and bad at this time.

But because there is an end purpose and all actions are known in advance no action is arbitrary.

Therefore from our perspective God is all knowing.

Because of this no action on our part can derail his plans so to us he is all powerful,

Because he is willing to use evil as well as good to achieve the end result he is not all loving but more inclined to practicability.

Because he has stated that he will in the end keep the good and destroy the evil he will be our judge because we are a part of his creation. If we are kept or rejected is at his discretion so to us he is a God to be feared.


Well that's my attempt, you add your math to that

[DontBeAfraid]

If God is still involved in creating then he must be working to an end purpose.

This one does not follow or is not always true. It might be but it doesnt have to be.

The conflict between good and bad must be required for the achievement of that end purpose.

This follows only if god is working towards and is responsible for all things.

We do not know the end purpose so we cannot understand the reason for the good and bad at this time.

This one does not follow... It seems to make two unneeded and unprovable assumptions.

But because there is an end purpose and all actions are known in advance no action is arbitrary.

Until you can prove it you are operating from the assumption that there is an end purpose. So properly put this one should read:
If there is and end purpose and since all actions are known in advance, no action is arbitrary.

Therefore from our perspective God is all knowing.

This was one of your beginning assumptions. You cant prove an assumption with a logic trail that starts with that assumption.

Because of this no action on our part can derail his plans so to us he is all powerful,

This has the same problem as above. A fair and still similar rewrite would be:
Assuming god is all powerful and assuming there is an endplan, no action on our part is not also a part of the plan.

Because he has stated

To include this statement you must also include the statement:
Assuming the bible is the written word of god.

[Cartesiantheater]

Thanks for the responses people.

Originally Posted by Godsgifttomankind

Hello Cartesiantheater and thank-you for the challenge,

I'll play

Thank you. But I need to point out that my conclusions were based upon MY initial premises. You have a couple that are different from mine, and as a result you will find that your God theory conflicts with mine.

Originally Posted by Godsgifttomankind

1) God Exists
2) God is all knowing
3) God is all seeing
4) God is all wise
5) God is all good
6) God is the creator of all that exists
7) God is all powerful

therefore 8) all that is created is subservient to God.

What do you mean by subservient? If God is all powerful, is it not conceivable that he could make a creation that HE was subservient to?

Originally Posted by Godsgifttomankind

If #5 and #6 are true then 9) all that God created is good.

I would say that 9) is NOT a necessary consequence. It could be that even though God is all good and even though he created all things, evil might be an accidental creation.

However, if you add 7) to 5, 6 and 2, then it would follow.



So, based on your initial assumptions 9) follows, but it follows because of four of them, not just two.

Originally Posted by Godsgifttomankind

Is it possible that our observation could be wrong?

Certainly. But the only problem with this is that because God is all powerful he could have accomplished exactly what he meant to in any conceivable way.



Now, we do NOT know exactly what he wanted to accomplish, but we know that it must be good, because of #5.


But there does appear to be a contradiction, IF evil is bad that is not good, that is, because God being all powerful could have accomplished his ultimate good aim without evil.


Basically, in order for your God to be consistent, it must also be the case that evil is a subset of good.

Originally Posted by Godsgifttomankind

What if the lack of knowledge is on the part of men, who do not see the whole picture?

For the purposes of this discussion, however, everything must follow logically. So long as we stick to that, I'll take on this point (also, remember that my point 10 will not be consistent with your God theory since you started with different initial assumptions).


The only logical way (as far as I can tell) for your God to be consistent is if evil is in fact good.

IF evil is NOT actually good, then evil cannot be a MEANS to a greater good, because your all good God is all powerful, and because of that he would not be forced to use evil as a means to a good.

So, unless evil is a subset of good, OR evil was in and of itself a purposeful creation with no contingency of it being a means to an end, your God does not exist (reductio ad absurdum).

Originally Posted by Godsgifttomankind

Examining the 8 examples that I have put forth, it is clear that your 10 and 11 are clearly illogical and impossible and as such the next step in the game means a very clear need to examine our own perspectives of the universe.

No they are not. They are illogical within YOUR universe (in math and logic, a universe is something like the real numbers, or the rational numbers, or the integers, or the natural numbers; a "universe" in this context would be the initial starting assumptions), but in MY universe, 10 and 11 follow quite logically.

Originally Posted by Traveler

God is
Everything in existence is a result of Gods creation
God is still in the process of creating
Both Good and bad exist
Nothing happens that God does not know about in advance

There fore God must work with both good and bad deliberately.

This conclusion DOES seem to follow.

Originally Posted by Traveler

If God is still involved in creating then he must be working to an end purpose.

This is true in every case except the case when the antecedent is true and the consequent is false:

If P, then Q:

Truth table

P | Q | if P then Q |

T...T.........T
F...T.........T
T...F.........F
F...F.........T

However, I think at least this can be known: since God works in good and bad deliberately, he is at least purposely using good and bad whilst creating.

Originally Posted by Traveler

The conflict between good and bad must be required for the achievement of that end purpose.

This CAN be true in your model because you have not made the claim that God is all powerful. If God isn't all powerful, then he is subject to "musts" and "requirements" in order to achieve certain goals.

Originally Posted by Traveler

We do not know the end purpose so we cannot understand the reason for the good and bad at this time.

IF we assume an end purpose, this DOES follow.

Originally Posted by Traveler

But because there is an end purpose and all actions are known in advance no action is arbitrary.

This follows.

Originally Posted by Traveler

Therefore from our perspective God is all knowing.

You started with the assumption that all actions are known in advance by God.

However, that God is all knowing doesn't necessarily follow ONLY from the fact that all actions are known in advance (I'm assuming that by "advance" you mean, at any time t he knows every action that will every happen at some later time t + Δt; there is an ambiguity due to the English language- it COULD mean that God knows every single event at least some incremental time Δt before they happen).

As long as you mean that God knows what every event will be ALL THE TIME, rather than just "in advance," then you could say that God is all knowing IF the following is true:

God also always remembers every event that ever occurs after the fact.

Of course, I am assuming you also meant that assumption.



So, with that large caveat, YES, it follows that God is all knowing.

Originally Posted by Traveler

Because of this no action on our part can derail his plans so to us he is all powerful,

I don't know about that, but your conclusion is still right because your initial assumption that everything in existence is the result of God's creation, because what we do are events and choices, and these are THINGS which at some point come into existence.

Originally Posted by Traveler

Because he is willing to use evil as well as good to achieve the end result he is not all loving but more inclined to practicability.

Yes, to whatever ends he has in mind, but clearly since he is all powerful, his ends include the experience of using both good and evil to obtain the greater ends.

That is, he wouldn't be required to use evil to accomplish anything, so using both good and evil must be one of his ends in and of themselves.

Originally Posted by Traveler

Because he has stated that he will in the end keep the good and destroy the evil he will be our judge because we are a part of his creation. If we are kept or rejected is at his discretion so to us he is a God to be feared.

If you insert the additional premise that God actually said that, then the consequent follows.


... unless you happen to be a person that looks forward to whatever judgment is in store...

Originally Posted by Traveler

Well that's my attempt, you add your math to that

Not bad Traveler. Only a couple of weak points as far as I could tell, but easily fixed with a couple more premises.

















DBA



- it does not follow, I don't think, that God is all knowing ONLY because he knows every event before it occurs. You have to specify WHEN he has knowledge of any event, and in order to be all knowing (as I am assuming we are defining it), he has to have knowledge of everything SIMULTANEOUSLY.

So, the only way that knowledge of every event in advance implies all knowing is if that knowledge is held completely at every instant.

[Captain America]

God is Our Father that loveth US and wants US to bee with HIM in Heaven. The Father and the Son forgive US but the Law does not. It must have the blood for the payment of Sins. The resurrection is the only way to avoid the Tribulation that starts after the coming confrontation that beegins in the Middle East after Israel attacks Iran which should bee soon.

[Cartesiantheater]

Originally Posted by Captain America

God is Our Father that loveth US and wants US to bee with HIM in Heaven. The Father and the Son forgive US but the Law does not. It must have the blood for the payment of Sins. The resurrection is the only way to avoid the Tribulation that starts after the coming confrontation that beegins in the Middle East after Israel attacks Iran which should bee soon.

Somebody completely missed the point of the thread...