A Conversation with New Wine

[weederbro]

A Conversation with New Wine

I PM’d New Wine and put it to her that the 7th Day Sabbath was created partly for the purpose of having a day off paid work. This is part of her response and my replies.

I decided to make it public because I thought it would be instructive.

‘I think He was talking about the Torah keeping Jews’(NW)

But we are told who he was speaking to: (Matt 24:3)
His disciples. Are we not His disciples?

’I think that the blessing comes from being with Him and focusing on Him without labour one day a week...what ever that day may be.(NW)

The unique thing about the day isn’t particularly the worship aspect. We should not work for wages, The 7th Day being created and designated especially for that purpose, rest from our physical labours (and therefore Mammon).
You want to pick another day? LOL!

‘I don't think that the blessing for the Redeemed comes by the letter of the law’(NW)

Neither do I, what would be new about the New Testament if it did?

‘If you break the 10 commandments down into those two groups...it becomes clear that they fit into one or the other’ (NW)

I agree. The first four are our obligations to Yah, and the latter six are our obligations to people.

It’s interesting that ‘4’ represents foundation, and ‘6’ represents man.

Are you ‘keeping’(not breaking) the other 9 commandments?

If you are'nt you’re not walking in the Spirit but in the flesh and are regarded as ‘lawless’.

Yeshua is the WORD made flesh and He walked in it.
That WORD does not change.
The ‘WORD’ came as flesh and fulfilled the law (didn’t break it), and said that not one jot or tittle would be changed and that He came not to nullify it, but to fulfil it (keep it).
Paul says he mimics Yeshua (1 Cor 11) and asks us to also, to walk as He walked, in the Spirit (not lawlessly).

If you’ve been taught that the law is void because of grace, you have been taught a lie.

Yeshua never castigated the Pharisees for keeping the law but for keeping it in the wrong spirit.

I ask you how you could define sin without the Moral Law (10 Commandments)?

The fact that man cannot keep them perfectly as Yeshua did is where Grace comes in (what a blessing and relief!)

But we can’t go off and live by some other code of our own choosing, His is the PERFECT law. It is the ‘schoolmaster’ that reminds us of what sin is, the measuring stick as it were.

We haven’t been removed from this excellent law but from its CURSE! By grace we are saved.

‘If you love me, keep my commandments’ said Yeshua, well He was the Word that never changes, the commandments HIS commandments!

Genesis 26 tells us that Abraham obeyed the commandments, and is why he was chosen.
The Word that never changes was in the garden, walking and talking with Adam, there isn’t a more excellent moral law and was always unchangeably embodied. Note how Paul waxes lyrical about the law.

Romans 13:10 Love is expressed by the fulfilling of the law.

You love Him enough to try your hardest to keep His Word, when you fail, as you will, GRACE! HalleluYAH!)

These words make the case irrefutable:
1John v2- Now by this we know that we know Him, IF we keep His commandments..
..he who says “I know Him’ and does not keep the commandments is a liar (!)
v7; I write no new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you have had from the beginning..

1John 3:22- And whatever we ask we receive from Him
Because we keep His commandments…

1John 5:2- by this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments
v3- For this is the love of God, that we KEEP His commandments…

REV 12:17…who keep the commandments of God AND have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

REV 14:12- Here is the patience of the saints, here are those who keep the commandments of God AND the faith of Jesus.

You say you love Yah? Well the WORD says this is defined by keeping His commandments.

Is it REALLY a surprise that we are asked to do our best to walk as HE walked?

If we stumble, we are no longer sent in front of the Sanhedrin , but given time and opportunity to see the error of our ways and repent.
By GRACE we are saved. This is the difference between the OT and the NT.

[New Wine]

I don't see anything I disagree with other than holding a specific day of the week as a yoke around the believers neck.

I don't think that God cares what day of the week I worship. What if the only job a person is able to obtain required work on the 7th day sabbath? What would the choice be? Provide for the family, or hold to the letter of the law?

I see it as legalism.

Yes, keeping His commandments is what is required. But there is a difference in keeping them because you are legalistic and keeping them out of wanting to please Him. The sabbath blessing is not given because of the specific day it is practiced, but because of what is honored in the day.

[Cherisa]

Either you take ALL of the commandments or none of them..In God's eyes, if you don't keep the Sabbath and keep it holy it's the same as killing someone.

[Traveler]

Originally Posted by Cherisa

Either you take ALL of the commandments or none of them..In God's eyes, if you don't keep the Sabbath and keep it holy it's the same as killing someone.

So now we get to the next question, is the sabbath on the Saturday or the Sunday. Which group do you claim is doomed?

What is the difference between the spirit of the law and the letter of the law. Do you suggest that we push aside the sacrifice of Christ and return to legalism and restart the stoning's all over again?

[olddragon]

One of the major questions the early Church in Palestine had to decide
was about the obligation of Christians to the ceremonial law of Moses.

The matter was partially solved by the conference held in Jerusalem,
as recorded in Acts 15 and Gal. 2.
The Jewish Christians in particular had difficulty giving up the ritual of the law of Moses.

The Nephites, on the other hand,
seemed to have had much less of a problem doing so (see 3 Ne. 15: 1-5).

The law as given through Moses was a good law,
although adapted to a lower spiritual capacity
than is required for obedience to the gospel in its fulness.

However, the Jewish leaders had added many unauthorized provisions,
ceremonies, and prohibitions to the original law,
until it became extremely burdensome.
These innovations were known as the “traditions of the elders.”

By N.T. times among the Jews the law had become so altered
it had lost much of its spiritual meaning
almost to the point that the law was worshipped more than the Lord.

It is this form of the law that is so harshly spoken against by Jesus
and by Paul (see Matt. 15: 1-9; Mark 7: 1-13; Gal. 2: 16-21).
There is no evidence that the law of Moses
had become as altered among the Nephites as among the Jews,
and this may partially explain why the Nephites
had less trouble in giving it up when the Savior came.

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/bd/l/9

Christ fulfilled the letter of the law,
the ever lasting sacrifice.

[weederbro]

‘I don't think that God cares what day of the week I worship’.(NW)

Think about this more.
It’s not primarily about worship, but labour.

We worship all the time, there is no restriction on this.

Respect that a particular day was CREATED, to provide a break from mammon and the daily grind.

‘I see it as legalism’ (NW)

Scripture teaches that obedience is the ultimate expression of your love for Him.

If you’re going to pick the 4th commandment and say that observing it is legalism, logic demands that this reasoning would apply to the other 9.

Presuming that you are not a thief or a murderer, are you being legalistic?

‘but because of what is honored in the day’ (NW)

You seem to think it’s primarily about worship, which it isn’t, as already explained.

You are expected to trust Him so much that any problem coming from keeping
The Sabbath employment wise, will be met by His provision.

You may think that this is REALLY a test of your love and trust in Him.
That’s what faith is all about, crossing a line and taking that leap.

It’s not about your convenience, but your faith and sacrifice.

‘So now we get to the next question, is the sabbath on the Saturday or the Sunday’. (Trav)

The 7th Day Sabbath starts at sundown Friday and continues through to Saturday sundown.

I have already posted about the history of the weekly cycle, and how the order of the days goes way way back into antiquity.

This was the time the Jews kept before and during the ministry of Yeshua, and He didn’t correct them on that score. Indeed, the Jews still keep it in that time slot!.

‘What is the difference between the spirit of the law and the letter of the law. Do you suggest that we push aside the sacrifice of Christ and return to legalism’ (Trav)

The sacrifice disables the CURSE of the law, providing an opportunity for sinners to reflect and repent.
But I already mentioned this.

Guys, re-read Romans ie: 2:13-14.

What about 3:31-?
Do we then by this faith make the law of no effect, overthrow it or make it a dead letter? CERTAINLY NOT!.
On the contrary, we CONFIRM and ESTABLISH and UPHOLD the law.

Or this:
7:12-The law then is sacred and each commandment sacred and just and good.

7:22- ..I endorse and delight in the law of God in my inmost self [in my new nature].

In chapter nine from verse31 it is explained that Israel were ever in pursuit of a law ‘for the securing’ of righteousness’, but did not succeed because they pursued it not through faith, but on the merit of their works.

Then as OD points out, they became guilty of adding the ‘commandments of men’.
Which is what attracted Yeshua’s ire, that they were making Sabbath observance onerous.

Remember how Yeshua speculates whether He will find, upon His return. People following HIS teachings or the teachings of men?

What kind of error would you be making by observing what He observed and walking the way that He walked?????

Obedience ought to come from love and trust, not from the feeling of obligation.

Why do some of you resist the fact that when you walk in His Spirit you are fulfilling the law. If you’re being ‘lawless’ you are NOT walking in His spirit but according to your flesh.

Like it or not, your reasonings have to take into account the above-mentioned scriptures without contradicting them!! I also refer to the quotes in the first post by John.

Explain why those scriptures don’t mean what they say, and I’ll apologise and withdraw!

It sounds to me that people want to walk in the things that are CONVENIENT to their lifestyles!.

Did He or did He not say that not one jot or tittle would pass from the law?

Address THIS!

The commandments address sin right?
If they define sin, where do you stand when you decide to pick one to definitely NOT fulfil?

Is HIS WORD unchangeable or not?

Please supply me with an alternative moral law if you insist on nullifying the one He already gave and is held in such esteem by Paul.


Hmm..

[weederbro]

Hi Cherisa!
Your post puts it very bluntly, but yeah, break one and you break them all according to the Master!

Cheers!

[New Wine]

Ok, it was presumptuous to think that I do not hold one day a week as holy and not treat it as is written in the commandment. I pick a day of the week, and hold it holy. Do not labor, and worship the Lord. This is what I do every week. Because of work schedules, sometimes the day of the week varies.

So am I now outside of the law because I do not practice this on Fri sundown to Sat sundown? I feel the God stick coming after me ;)

Here's my take on it:

Rom 3:20 Because by works of Law not one of all flesh will be justified before Him, for through Law is full knowledge of sin. Psa. 143:2
Rom 3:21 But now a righteousness of God has been revealed apart from Law, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
Rom 3:22 even the righteousness of God through faith of Jesus Christ toward all and upon all those believing; for there is no difference,
Rom 3:23 for all sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Rom 3:24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption in Christ Jesus,
Rom 3:25 whom God set forth as a propitiation through faith in His blood, as a demonstration of His righteousness through the passing over of the sins that had taken place before, in the forbearance of God,
Rom 3:26 for a demonstration of His righteousness in the present time, for His being just and justifying the one that is of the faith of Jesus.
Rom 3:27 Then where is the boasting? It was excluded. Through what law? Of works? No, but through a Law of faith.
Rom 3:28 Then we conclude a man to be justified by faith without works of Law.
Rom 3:29 Or is He the God of Jews only, and not also of the nations? Yes, of the nations also,
Rom 3:30 since it is one God who will justify circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
Rom 3:31 Then is the Law annulled through faith? Let it not be! But we establish Law.

Establish means:
G2476
ἵστημι
histēmi
his'-tay-mee
A prolonged form of a primary word στάω staō (of the same meaning, and used for it in certain tenses); to stand (transitively or intransitively), used in various applications (literally or figuratively): - abide, appoint, bring, continue, covenant, establish, hold up, lay, present, set (up), stanch, stand (by, forth, still, up). Compare G5087.

Verse 30 shows how the Jews are justified in circumcision, and the others are justified by uncircumcision…by faith. If a person thinks they should hold to a particular day of the week for Sabbath, and they are doing so in faith, they should be able to do so. If a person does not hold to a particular day of the week for worship/rest/no labor, then that should also be by faith.

I establish the commandments in my personal life. I do uphold the sabbath and what it stands for. Rest/worship. I worship everyday of the week, and am in the Word everyday of the week. But there is one day set aside...I have established it in how I live.

[Cherisa]

What day of the week would Jesus have worshiped?

[Traveler]

Well this does create a dalema but as we are getting all legalistic about it what are we going to do about those that go to church on a Sunday.

According to the law no one may travel further than a Sabbaths journey from their place of residence on that day. That is about far enough for an outside toilet run. If fact they cannot even collect firewood or cook on that day. The very act of going all the way to a church hall breaks that commandment and creates sinners out of the faithful. Even if they do go on a Saturday.

Unless of course you guys are missing something here.

[Cherisa]

Originally Posted by Traveler

Well this does create a dalema but as we are getting all legalistic about it what are we going to do about those that go to church on a Sunday.

According to the law no one may travel further than a Sabbaths journey from their place of residence on that day. That is about far enough for an outside toilet run. If fact they cannot even collect firewood or cook on that day. The very act of going all the way to a church hall breaks that commandment and creates sinners out of the faithful. Even if they do go on a Saturday.

Unless of course you guys are missing something here.

Um..okay.I'll just pick the ones I like to keep...

You shall not murder.
That's it for me..
The one commandment..
I mean it's not like it's written in stone...

[weederbro]

‘Jews are justified in circumcision, and the others are justified by uncircumcision…by faith.’ (NW)

This is true, but circumcision is replaced by immersion according to Paul’s writings, and wasn’t in the Decalogue which was kept in the holy of holies.
This is plainly written, but nothing is written saying the same of the 7th Day Sabbath of which Yeshua was LORD, who re-iterated this fact to the Pharisees, hardly a negation of the day!
Not ONE scripture plainly nullifies the 7th Day Sabbath-FACT!

‘we are getting all legalistic’ (Trav)

Not really. When you are not lying and stealing, are you being legalistic, or are you walking by some kind of morality, and if so where does this morality spring from? I refer to believers here.

Are you saved by living in this morality?
Well, without it you are lawless.

It is faith in Yeshua alone that saves us, but does He save the unrepentant lawless?


Trav’s loo is a bit of a hike away (LOL!)
Because a Sabbath Day’s journey is about half a mile.

‘they cannot even collect firewood or cook on that day.’ (Trav)
So don’t cook. There’s plenty to eat without cooking!
Too much of a hassle for you? (lol)


Matt 24:20- But pray ye that your flight
be not in the winter, neither on the Sabbath day:

This is Yeshua projecting the Sabbath 37 years into the future if you believe the ‘end times’ referred to is AD70 when the Romans destroyed the temple.

Personally I think the end times He refers to is actually when He comes back at the end of all things.
But either way the Sabbath is projected into the future.

Did Yeshua keep it or not?
Did Paul who mimicked Him?
Shouldn’t we then follow their example?
Scripture answers, “Yes”.

It is also my understanding that the Future Kingdom will have the Sabbath day of rest also:

Isa 66:23- And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one Sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.

I see that some of you aren’t referring to the scriptures by John in his epistles, and in Revelations as I earlier posted, OR the verses in Romans because the reasonings you are presenting are contradicting those scriptures.
They have to be answered because scripture does not contradict itself.


If you are not walking lawfully as Yeshua did, then you are walking lawlessly, There’s no escaping this.
This is not ‘legalistic’ when you look to Yeshua to redeem you! It’s morally upright!

I ask again, was Yeshua being ‘legalistic’ when practicing honesty and truthfulness??

Why is this so hard for some to come to grips with?

[New Wine]

Guess this is one that the Lord will have to convict me of there weederbro. Sorry you guys think I'm lawless.

Wonder if I'll make it to the wedding feast, and who I'll be sitting by?

[weederbro]

New Wine,
I'm not looking to condemn anyone, who the hell am I?

I'm a student of the Word and I'm looking for posts that I can use with all good conscience to actuall negate the 7th Day Sabbath!!!!

But I get scriptures that contradict others of which I have posted just a few.

But you havn't discussed what they mean if they DON'T mean what I am putting forward.
No one has.

If we were incapable of understanding slightly involved things, we could still be assured of our redemption just by walking the way our saviour walked and observing what He observed, is that a fair comment.

I didn't want to offend anyone, just challenge, in an effort to get ALL the points of view I could in order to review what I had concluded about the issue.

I'm ready at any time to drop what is proven false because I am actually interested in getting closer to the truth than what the churches taught me years ago.

Sometimes it's hard to get their conditioning out of your head, I know.

Anyway, I have no more to add to what I have presented, and it looks like we might just go around in circles if we continue!

Sorry if it looked like I was trying to belittle you, i like you more than that!
Cheers! :)

[debonnaire]

mes deux

Sabbath for me is resting wholly on the finished work of the Cross.

It is the Rest spoken of in Hebrews chapter 4, rest that we enter by faith

There is the similitude with what the generation of Hebrews lived when they had to enter Canaan which for us is the abundant life after the narrow path. The Hebrews could not go left or right , they had to follow the cloud and the fire, they drank the spiritual drink , ate the spiritual food ...

I ought not to be disobedient like those who despite the sure promise ,
murmured and tempted God , lusted and did not believed , ... ( 1 Corinthians 10 )
and fell away from the faith.

[Cherisa]

One question tho..

If The Ten were important enough for God to write them in stone, are they still important?
Having church on Saturday doesn't negate Jesus' work in any way.
And the way you guys present it..murder is legalism too.

[jeffweeder]

yo


Sabbath observance was instituted when God led the Israelites out of Egypt
God made a cov with all those Israelites who he led out of Egypt, as a sign between Him and them...no-one else.
Before then ,we have zero scriptures that state that Adam, Noah, Abraham etc keeping Sabbath . You wont find one command that requires you to rest as God did the 7th day in Genesis.
This was a new cov, made with those at Horeb only....and came with its restrictions and regulations.
The Israelites at Horeb didnt understand what it meant at first, as a few of them went looking for manna on the 7th day and didnt find any. It was all new to them.
Messiah would come and one day make a new cov with them and us...making the old one obselete.

Gods new command was for people to listen to his Son. He did this in the presence of Moses and Elijah when Christ was transfigured on the mountain....yes God spoke from a mountain again pointing the people to listen to Christ and not Moses..

Christ established a new cov, in his blood, in which we were to meet together to break bread to remember it.
As far as i can tell they only did this on the first day of the week.
Christ was risen on the first day of the week, and broke bread with those 2 blokes on the road .
The disciples were gathered together on the first day of the week when the Spirit came and the Church was born.
Paul waited until the first day of the week in acts 20---even though he was going to miss the boat. Why?
They all came together on first day to take up a collection for the poor saints in Jerusalem.

Christ said that not one jot /stroke of the old law would pass away until all be fulfilled.
Christ has fulfilled it and it has passed away already.

[Jake99]

Originally Posted by Traveler

Unless of course you guys are missing something here.

Just do not work every day of the week is the message, no day is a holiday or weekend to God.

Originally Posted by Cherisa

Um..okay.I'll just pick the ones I like to keep...

You shall not murder.
That's it for me..
The one commandment..
I mean it's not like it's written in stone...

You say this and yet over 60% of your income taxes are directed towards murdering.

Originally Posted by New Wine

Guess this is one that the Lord will have to convict me of there weederbro. Sorry you guys think I'm lawless.

Wonder if I'll make it to the wedding feast, and who I'll be sitting by?

All of you are lawless, a culture of corruption and greed that was highly discouraged by the Bible.

Originally Posted by jeffweeder

yo

Messiah would come and one day make a new cov with them and us...making the old one obselete.

Gods new command was for people to listen to his Son. He did this in the presence of Moses and Elijah when Christ was transfigured on the mountain....yes God spoke from a mountain again pointing the people to listen to Christ and not Moses..

Christ established a new cov, in his blood, in which we were to meet together to break bread to remember it.

Christ said that not one jot /stroke of the old law would pass away until all be fulfilled.
Christ has fulfilled it and it has passed away already.

I am the man who brings you the knowledge and the original law that permanently resolves everthing that is broken. You will not need a book, what I will tell you is a philosophy that is based on comon sense and can be found in the Bible once you understand the big picture theory that I also recommend. I am coming soon, listen to me, I am the different one with the plan that is mathematically perfect.

[weederbro]

Hi Jeff!
Any ideas on what ‘commandments’ Abraham was keeping that led Yah to choose him?


Re; ‘breaking bread’
‘As far as i can tell they only did this on the first day of the week’ (Jeff)

Acts 20:7 reads in the Hebrew version:

“On Motza’ei Shabbat, when we were gathered to break bread, Sha’ul addressed them. Since he was going to leave the next day, he kept talking until midnight”.

This means he was leaving on the first day of the week.

In 1Cor 16:2 Paul says:

“Every week, on Motza’ei Shabbat, each of you should set some money aside, according to his resources, and save it up; so that when I come I won’t have to do fundraising”


('Motz'ei Shabbat' means 'the going out of the Sabbath' that is, Saturday evening!)


‘Christ said that not one jot /stroke of the old law would pass away until all be fulfilled.
Christ has fulfilled it and it has passed away already’ (Jeff).

I would counter that all will not be ‘fulfilled’ until the consummation of this age, when Yeshua returns to redeem us, but if you are right, He still only changed those parts of the law that were 'shadows' like animal sacrifice and other ceremonial stuff.

How can morality change when His morality is perfect?
I mean it was He that gave the moral law, and it was kept in the holy of holies. This says to me that it represents His character and unchangeable nature.
Where these 'shadows' of what was to come were kept BESIDE the ark and written NOT by Yah's finger but Moses'.

So we see things being treatd differently.

Hmm..

[weederbro]

'Sabbath for me is resting wholly on the finished work of the Cross' (Deb)

Hi!

The thing is, in scripture I see it being kept AFTER He left!
Can you explain this?

[Traveler]

Originally Posted by Cherisa

One question tho..

If The Ten were important enough for God to write them in stone, are they still important?
Having church on Saturday doesn't negate Jesus' work in any way.
And the way you guys present it..murder is legalism too.

The ten commandments are still valid and still apply. A sabbath set aside in a cycle of 7 days is still a requirement.

It would be best if it was done on a national level so all did it on the same day but the more you want to do it the more it seems that there are obsticals in the way so we just do the best we can.

[New Wine]

+ YouTube Video

[debonnaire]

Originally Posted by weederbro

'Sabbath for me is resting wholly on the finished work of the Cross' (Deb)

Hi!

The thing is, in scripture I see it being kept AFTER He left!
Can you explain this?

well maybe they were Jews , and they were used to it.

Okay, It is reasonable and good for man to rest (physically) once in a while, the Creator and Lord knows that our bodies needs physical rest too,
One day out of 7 is probably exactly what people need in general.

You know, the atheist , the mayor of your town as well as the priest or the syndicalist , know that resting periodically from physcial work is good for man.

the Law was the shadow of the reality ( Christ ) to come. Saints are not under the Law
The Law was not given to the righteous but to the unrighteous.

If one try to impose a yoke to the gentiles ( like imposing a day for worship or for any other special day), he disobeys the scriptures.

[weederbro]

'well maybe they were Jews' (deb)

Acts 18 tells us differently.

So does Acts 13: from verse 42

Deb, as I requested others to do, tell me why the scriptures in the epistles of John and Revelation, and Romans which I have already quoted DON'T mean what they say!

[weederbro]

‘they cannot even collect firewood or cook on that day.’ (Trav)

This is true but there is something about lighting fires that hasn't been mentioned.

The entire chapter 35 of Exodus is about the Israelites building the Tabernacle and God telling them how to construct it. So....this is the context.

The building required much physical labor as well as the smelting of metals for its construction. The prohibition against fires (verse 1) has to do with working on the Tabernacle.
Moses is reminding them they cannot work on the Tabernacle on the Sabbath.

Fires were not prohibited on the Sabbath but the Pharisees took this one chapter and tried to make everyone believe they were.

This is what the Pharisees did and why they were such a pain in the neck to Our Lord. Read [Mark 7:1-13] to see what they attempted to do about the simple task of washing their hands and utensils.
They make a Federal case out of everything and this is what they attempted to do with the admonition against smelting fires on the Sabbath.

[Numbers 28:9-10] 9 And on the Sabbath day two lambs of the first year without spot, and two tenth deals of flour for a meat offering, mingled with oil, and the drink offering thereof: 10 This is the burnt offering of every sabbath, beside the continual burnt offering, and his drink offering.

It would be difficult to have burnt offerings on the Sabbath.....without fires!

(Thanks to my source Hawkeye!)