Anarchy Working Well Sign

[Anarch]

Originally Posted by MaximumPain

Programmers and cisco certified professionals, network engineers, security professionals, telecommunication professionals to start with. Those individuals are supported by thousands of lower level operators, managers, and programmers. But I think you know that already and are just being difficult because your so in love with this anarchy idea of yours.

Maybe.

I am also aware that their are 12 year olds that can hack iphones from game boy ds. Your right about me NOT being an IT professional but I do understand the knowledge has no prejudice against age, and while my example is the exception it still bears merit worth mentioning because it illustrates my point that certifications and managers does not keep the internet running but rather code does. And anyone can learn code. Being in the IT field I bet you host a website of your own somewhere in the digital universe. Am I right?

The back bone has not changed that much its just gotten bigger and more redundant. Left unsupported the internet would start to die in days and be mostly gone probably in a few months (assuming the power and equipment were just left running unattended, if someone cut the power it would die instantly).

Ah yes. IF all the worlds electricity went then we would indeed lose the net. No signal from Bombay to LA. Of course if such were the case I think we'd have more to worry about than our emails.

To get started yes but it takes teamwork to really get things done and thats the start of government in one form or another.

I disagree. Choosing to work with your fellow man does not form the elementary bonds of government. Rather the willing consent to be governed is the establishment of governance. If I refuse my consent ...I suppose I could be considered a rebel or insurgent in the eyes of any said government.

It is what it is but what its not is anarchy. There are rules and protocols hell TCP/IP is a protocol that the internet uses to talk to each other. Good luck getting the enriched Uranium for that bomb even if you do know how to do it.

I read online that I could get some from Canada...but I have no desire to get it. Just saying via the net I know where mines are located, instructions on enrichment, designs on the trigger...yeah...its alot of info online... One could just as likely go with peaceful applications and build a nuclear power plant but why considering the toxic waste? For my time and effort I say HHO is the way to go.

You have your own definition of it and then you want to argue that with the rest of us who are using the official definition of it. It sounds like what you want is really some version of Libertarianism and I could live with that.

Realistic Anarchist. Thats me. I understand the day and age and world I live in. Their is what I would like to see happen in the world and what I know I can create for myself. ...As for definitions I go by the Latin...no government rule. Just people working and living doing their thing free of government intrusion.

Hmmm I kind of like the laws that punish people for killing and stealing, I dont like the ones that put people in jail for smoking a joint but I would not give up laws against killing and stealing so some dudes can get stoned sorry. Most of the law is necessary and good for the peaceful operation of society.

Law starts out all nice and good and yet as I look though the tomes of history I see the pattern always repeats, Governments grow larger then they install laws detrimental to the good of the people then the people suffer followed with the inevitably collapse of the government...only to be replaced with yet another government that repeats the cycle. I don't expect everyone to understand how I see this view point of mine. My certainty of Anarchy. I think it is an inevitability that is a natrual consequence of increased education and understanding. When it's the right time humanity will realize the pointlessness of government and make the choice to abolish it.

Let me know when your ready to live without those things hell you can do that now in a couple of places around the world.
Your literacy proves that you have reaped the benefits of our society by receiving education just as the very fact that we are having this discussion right now on this wonderful internet that was bought and paid for by the hard work of people who were also educated.


Education is a product of organization at some level but you are correct that that is one thing they lack in that part of the world.
Its not anarchy as some warlords are in control. Head on over and try to set up shop and see who comes to shoot your ass. Anarchy would last about as long as it took for someone to see that they can be in control by shooting the right people.

Yaup Sometimes I clip bytes. I try to be frugal with bandwidth. (no not really)
My parents taught me how to read and basic math before I entered public school. Made my school days ....interesting. Yeah I went to public schools.
I was told in my teenage years that if I did not attend my parents might face arrest for not making me go to school. So I dropped out got my GED and moved forward.

Anarchy could only last as long as you could defend yourself I suppose. The best equipped anarch gets to remain free...maybe I'll reconsider my thoughts on that uranium.

You have some idea for a government and want to call it anarchy...

Incorrect. I have some idea of anarchy and I call it no government.

No Taxes to pay for services like the FDA or public education. No state produced currency to inflate or deflate. No army to protect you from invasion. ...You would either have to be a hardy, well armed , and well educated fellow or live in a more ideal world although I think the final truth will be a bit of a blend of both.

Id like to see a few of the socialist ideas yes but not communism.

Socialism ewww. My idea of socialism ends with the family. I'll be damned if I'm comfortable having my labor stolen to bail out fat rich fuckers that feel entitled to more money.

I do like some aspects of a free market but the corporations have shown me with their actions currently and in the past that they cannot be allowed to act without controls and regulations.

Aye and this here is another one of my major beefs with government. On a long enough timeline the rich always worm their way in. In the words of a wiser man "Give me control of a nations currency and I don't care what laws they make". Big Corporations always seem to manage to put men representing their interests into the seats of power....much to our expense.

Can this freaking beast be regulated and tempered? Damned if I know. I say scrap the system. If only the world would agree Instead I accept what is and do the best I can by what I can do.

Still I think the internet is a good example of Anarchy in function. I know one must obey the rules of packets and IPs and what not...But given the lack of a central authority or direct owner I'd say the free unrestricted net as done well for it's self as an organized mass.

Looks like we probably agree on more then you think we do.

Proly.

[Tormentations]

Whether or not any like it, anyone who takes advantage of the world wide web via internet is a practicing anarchist. Maybe they should add that to wikipedia some day.

By participating online you all are anarchists. Yes, guilty by association. So least until you log off, you are a definite practicing anarchist without any doubt about it.

[Anarch]

LOL... Guilt by association perhaps?

[DontBeAfraid]

Whether or not any like it, anyone who takes advantage of the world wide web via internet is a practicing anarchist.

(self edit). The internet has many many many regulations and rules. Even This forum has a government.

[lycanox]

Originally Posted by Anarch

Maybe.

I am also aware that their are 12 year olds that can hack iphones from game boy ds. Your right about me NOT being an IT professional but I do understand the knowledge has no prejudice against age, and while my example is the exception it still bears merit worth mentioning because it illustrates my point that certifications and managers does not keep the internet running but rather code does. And anyone can learn code. Being in the IT field I bet you host a website of your own somewhere in the digital universe. Am I right?

And who makes the codes. Programmers.

So naturally the programmers are in charge.

Ah yes. IF all the worlds electricity went then we would indeed lose the net. No signal from Bombay to LA. Of course if such were the case I think we'd have more to worry about than our emails.

Not true. Without supervision. The net would fall victim to spammers hate mail and illegal material. Which would not only scare the population off. The government would eventually be forced to completely shut it down as it would become a danger to the world. And set up a new more regulated one.

I disagree. Choosing to work with your fellow man does not form the elementary bonds of government. Rather the willing consent to be governed is the establishment of governance. If I refuse my consent ...I suppose I could be considered a rebel or insurgent in the eyes of any said government.

IF you choose to work with people. You choose to accept their rules and agreements. Meaning that the company can fire you if they want.

Wish is exactly the same to that you have to submit to laws. If you want to live in a country. And that the government can arrest and in some countries even legally kill you. If you break to much laws.

I read online that I could get some from Canada...but I have no desire to get it. Just saying via the net I know where mines are located, instructions on enrichment, designs on the trigger...yeah...its alot of info online... One could just as likely go with peaceful applications and build a nuclear power plant but why considering the toxic waste? For my time and effort I say HHO is the way to go.


Realistic Anarchist. Thats me. I understand the day and age and world I live in. Their is what I would like to see happen in the world and what I know I can create for myself. ...As for definitions I go by the Latin...no government rule. Just people working and living doing their thing free of government intrusion.

The Latin definition clearly claims no rule at all.
And nothing about governments.

What you are doing has nothing to do with anarchism.
But just kicking to governments.

Law starts out all nice and good and yet as I look though the tomes of history I see the pattern always repeats, Governments grow larger then they install laws detrimental to the good of the people then the people suffer followed with the inevitably collapse of the government...only to be replaced with yet another government that repeats the cycle. I don't expect everyone to understand how I see this view point of mine. My certainty of Anarchy. I think it is an inevitability that is a natrual consequence of increased education and understanding. When it's the right time humanity will realize the pointlessness of government and make the choice to abolish it.

Actually the historical fact is that the best times in history were under a well functioning government. And we could never developed this far without them.

While there is no example from history of an successful anarchistic political system existing that did not collapse into famines and civil war within months.

After all, your suggestions on how to educate people and handle crime so far have been a complete failure.

Yaup Sometimes I clip bytes. I try to be frugal with bandwidth. (no not really)
My parents taught me how to read and basic math before I entered public school. Made my school days ....interesting. Yeah I went to public schools.
I was told in my teenage years that if I did not attend my parents might face arrest for not making me go to school. So I dropped out got my GED and moved forward.

Anarchy could only last as long as you could defend yourself I suppose. The best equipped anarch gets to remain free...maybe I'll reconsider my thoughts on that uranium.

So basically Anarchy only works for people that are strong.
And by letting the weak die.

Than sounds government that set up programs to help the weak a lot better.

Incorrect. I have some idea of anarchy and I call it no government.

No Taxes to pay for services like the FDA or public education.

Then how do you know if food is safe to eat.
And how do you plan to educate people.

No state produced currency to inflate or deflate.

Then how do you suggest to arrange trade?

No army to protect you from invasion.

Should we just live under occupation of the first group that realizes the advantage. And who is going to assist during a natural disaster.

...You would either have to be a hardy, well armed , and well educated fellow or live in a more ideal world although I think the final truth will be a bit of a blend of both.

So again, the weak should just perish?

Socialism ewww. My idea of socialism ends with the family. I'll be damned if I'm comfortable having my labor stolen to bail out fat rich fuckers that feel entitled to more money.

And you have a uncle that can do an open hearth operation when needed. A grandpa that just happens to know how to remove a tumor from a brain. Or an aunt that just happens to have a fully equipped hospital in their basement?

Aye and this here is another one of my major beefs with government. On a long enough timeline the rich always worm their way in. In the words of a wiser man "Give me control of a nations currency and I don't care what laws they make". Big Corporations always seem to manage to put men representing their interests into the seats of power....much to our expense.

Can this freaking beast be regulated and tempered? Damned if I know. I say scrap the system. If only the world would agree Instead I accept what is and do the best I can by what I can do.

Kicking other systems does not make your system suddenly work.

Still I think the internet is a good example of Anarchy in function. I know one must obey the rules of packets and IPs and what not...But given the lack of a central authority or direct owner I'd say the free unrestricted net as done well for it's self as an organized mass.


Proly.

If the current Internet is such a great example of anarchy.
Then why does it need the government to clean up child pornography. Instead of cleaning it up themselves?

Originally Posted by Tormentations

Whether or not any like it, anyone who takes advantage of the world wide web via internet is a practicing anarchist. Maybe they should add that to wikipedia some day.

By participating online you all are anarchists. Yes, guilty by association. So least until you log off, you are definite anarchist without any doubt about it.

How can the Internet be anarchistic if we still have to abide laws from the government on it.

[Anarch]

Originally Posted by lycanox

And who makes the codes. Programmers.

So naturally the programmers are in charge.

And anyone can be a programmer. You , Me, some 12 year old. Education makes us equal.

I am done wasting bandwidth with you. I was warned by others to avoid debating with you and now I understand the warning. You read what ever you want to read out of my writings or accuse me of making suggestions and claims I don't make , You do not answer my questions I ask , and you argue ad nauseam for the sake of arguing with out even bothering to consider any other point of view other than your own.

Whats the point?

I like to talk on this subject but how can a talk with a person that reads things out of my writings that I do not write?

One can not have a conversation like that.
So yeah I guess we're done here.

[Anarch]

Originally Posted by DontBeAfraid

(self edit). The internet has many many many regulations and rules. Even This forum has a government.

I myself do not consider forum administration government.

I mean their is no army, Exile is the worst punishment I can receive, Their are no taxes, And the quality of this site is dependent upon the contributions of the posters.

This forum has rules. Enforced by admin. But that is a far cry different from a nation, with a government , that has laws, that you can be murdered in the defense there of.....

I understand the way things are but I do not see this forum as a government but just as a pleasant forum. You got your admin and your rules but government is a whole 'nother kind of beasty.

[lycanox]

Originally Posted by Anarch

And anyone can be a programmer. You , Me, some 12 year old. Education makes us equal.

We would still be dependable on other coders to learn it us.

Originally Posted by Anarch

I myself do not consider forum administration government.

I mean their is no army, Exile is the worst punishment I can receive, Their are no taxes, And the quality of this site is dependent upon the contributions of the posters.

This forum has rules. Enforced by admin. But that is a far cry different from a nation, with a government , that has laws, that you can be murdered in the defense there of.....

I understand the way things are but I do not see this forum as a government but just as a pleasant forum. You got your admin and your rules but government is a whole 'nother kind of beasty.

However anarchy is defined as being against any form of leadership and hierarchy whatsoever. After all, any hierarchical system would eventually turn into a government in no time.

So you cant simply say you are against this kind of leadership and not the other. As that wouldn't be anarchism. Its just liking a different hierarchical system.

Heck, by your logic democrats would be anarchists because they are against the type of government the republicans want. And vice versa.

[MaximumPain]

Originally Posted by Anarch

I myself do not consider forum administration government.

Well it is we have a King here he happens to be benevolent but he is a king or emperor if you want to get messy about divine right and all that.

I mean their is no army, Exile is the worst punishment I can receive, Their are no taxes, And the quality of this site is dependent upon the contributions of the posters.

Your federal tax's and internet fees pay for the infrastructure that you use to access this site so there is a use tax you just don't make the connection. Sure its voluntary but so are paying for your tabs and drivers license fees and those are tax's. There is a police force not quite an army but the mods could be considered the police of this site upholding the forum rules. Lucky this particular country I mean forum has rather liberal laws that allow most reasonable content. Try and threaten people or post smut and see what happens you will be exiled and your IP banned which is the maximum punishment one can receive in this virtual world.

This forum has rules. Enforced by admin. But that is a far cry different from a nation, with a government , that has laws, that you can be murdered in the defense there of.....

No this is a dictatorship and the mods are the gestapo. Lucky for us they are benevolent servants of a kind and glorious ruler. If it were different there would be a different crew of posters on here or maybe none at all but it is what it is. You cant be murdered over it because the stakes are low as in there is nothing risked but ego in posting here. If there were money, land, or resources at stake like in the real world then there would be murder and exploitation.

I understand the way things are but I do not see this forum as a government but just as a pleasant forum. You got your admin and your rules but government is a whole 'nother kind of beasty.

Its all a matter of scale. Ive noticed that as organizations get larger they get more corrupt. This applies to governments, corporations, church's, and even social clubs.
So anarchy works in fantasy worlds where there are no real consequences except exile. In real life desperate people do desperate things. If they organize you better watch out or have your own group thus the start of government.

[Mezurashi]

the defence of anarchy as a stable form of self determination is something I used to hear all the time when I was a 'punk' back in the 1980's ...

and it always comes back to the same point ...

"If there are no rules then the first thing I do is kill everyone I don't like and insure that me and mine are well protected ... and if you don't like it, leave or die because I will kill you to protect my own ..."

THAT is the basis of Anarchial Thinking.

and to think otherwise is simply demonstrative of the kind of naivete that allows individuals to buy into complete bullshit (scam artists and religious cults feed on these people).

the moment there is a single rule that two people agree to uphold it stops being an anarchy.

[Beatnik Bob]

Originally Posted by Cartesiantheater

We may be moving away from human leaders, but we are certainly moving into the direction of being led by abstract ideas.

Either way we are followers and will always be followers of at least principles.

Yet in an anarchy, there is no group of people deciding for you, what those principles are. Your values system is your own. You're your own legislator.
Of course, your behavior is affected by the principles of others, but if you have a very educated society, you will tend to have common values.

It's like a democracy without an executive, figurehead, or gov. branches..

Originally Posted by Lycanox

However anarchy is defined as being against any form of leadership and hierarchy whatsoever. After all, any hierarchical system would eventually turn into a government in no time.

No, some hierarchy is allowed. Anarchy isn't necessarily socialism. You could still work a job etc.

But the key is intelligence. Based on that intelligence, the people would be more inclined to behave a certain way. More egalitarian...etc. A class of "rich, educated, elite" wouldn't emerge...because everyone would be educated. Thus, the playing field would be equalized. Because, like in an (ideal) democracy, the rich have no more rule than the poor.

Because the people are not brainwashed into thinking that the bourgeoisie, aristocracy, or "elite" have inherent power. They know equality is a fundamental law of the universe.

[lycanox]

Originally Posted by Beatnik Bob

Yet in an anarchy, there is no group of people deciding for you, what those principles are. Your values system is your own. You're your own legislator.
Of course, your behavior is affected by the principles of others, but if you have a very educated society, you will tend to have common values.

It's like a democracy without an executive, figurehead, or gov. branches..

But in the end, you still need a government to regulate things.

After all you cant build a skyscraper without building codes. A blueprint. And people on the location to tell who should do what when.
Similarly you cant maintain a society without an organization keeping things in check.

No, some hierarchy is allowed. Anarchy isn't necessarily socialism. You could still work a job etc.

Than it is not Anarchy. But just another kind of government.

But the key is intelligence. Based on that intelligence, the people would be more inclined to behave a certain way. More egalitarian...etc. A class of "rich, educated, elite" wouldn't emerge...because everyone would be educated. Thus, the playing field would be equalized. Because, like in an (ideal) democracy, the rich have no more rule than the poor.

That is extremely unlikely. As a class would definitely emerge as people simply are not equal to each other. And have variating degrees of assertiveness, intelligence and strength.

As a result, the people that are more assertive and such. Will have a better chance on getting a promotion, job, friends, and partners. Than those that are less assertive.

So the only way to really get people to be equal to each other. Is to destroy any form of individualism that exist. Which is the extreme opposite of Anarchism.

Because the people are not brainwashed into thinking that the bourgeoisie, aristocracy, or "elite" have inherent power. They know equality is a fundamental law of the universe.

Actually nobody is brainwashed. Its just common sense and instinct to form governments.

After all, in all those years we are discussing anarchism. I have never heard a proposal for an anarchistic system that would actually work. Or would at least be more favorable than other nightmarish systems like fascism.

Only badly thought out plans of people that sound more like they are jumping on a bandwagon because they have some grudge with society.

[Anarch]

Originally Posted by Mezurashi

the defence of anarchy as a stable form of self determination is something I used to hear all the time when I was a 'punk' back in the 1980's ...

and it always comes back to the same point ...

"If there are no rules then the first thing I do is kill everyone I don't like and insure that me and mine are well protected ... and if you don't like it, leave or die because I will kill you to protect my own ..."

THAT is the basis of Anarchial Thinking.

and to think otherwise is simply demonstrative of the kind of naivete that allows individuals to buy into complete bullshit (scam artists and religious cults feed on these people).


the moment there is a single rule that two people agree to uphold it stops being an anarchy.

Wow what? That is not anarchy thinking? That is homicidal thinking! If that is the first thing you think to do in a society with no rules then you are not gonna last long. Their is always a bigger fish.

[Anarch]

Originally Posted by MaximumPain

Well it is we have a King here he happens to be benevolent but he is a king or emperor if you want to get messy about divine right and all that.

Meh... I guess we shall have to agree to disagree. As I see it on an evolutionary timeline ,we started off in anarchy and in the end we shall return to anarchy. Thats my thought. In the mean time I live in this world and it is all I can do to do my part to nudge the course of event to put more power into the hand of the people and encourage self determination so that maybe one day my descendants can enjoy the world I see.

[MaximumPain]

Originally Posted by Anarch

Meh... I guess we shall have to agree to disagree. As I see it on an evolutionary timeline ,we started off in anarchy and in the end we shall return to anarchy. Thats my thought. In the mean time I live in this world and it is all I can do to do my part to nudge the course of event to put more power into the hand of the people and encourage self determination so that maybe one day my descendants can enjoy the world I see.

I doubt modern humans have ever lived under anarchy. A tribe is not anarchy and lone humans cant survive in a world full of killer cats much less thrive.

You really have no idea how good you have it do you? You dont comprehend what organized society has provided you do you?

[Anarch]

Originally Posted by MaximumPain

You really have no idea how good you have it do you? You dont comprehend what organized society has provided you do you?

Now that is just a messed up assumption! You have not asked me any questions about myself and you assume to know a thing or two about me? Buddy I got news for you. With asking me anything you barely know jack save for what little I have already posted.

Questions

Try asking some before you make assumptions. You have no idea where I have been or what I have experienced. To jump the gun like you have just goes to expose your foolishness. Another wise quote: "It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool rather than opening your mouth and proving it"

[lycanox]

Originally Posted by Anarch

Meh... I guess we shall have to agree to disagree. As I see it on an evolutionary timeline ,we started off in anarchy and in the end we shall return to anarchy. Thats my thought. In the mean time I live in this world and it is all I can do to do my part to nudge the course of event to put more power into the hand of the people and encourage self determination so that maybe one day my descendants can enjoy the world I see.

Actually we never started of in anarchy. Governmental structures are pretty common in Nature. And we just happen to be one of the species that has them.

Besides, too much has changed since the stone age.
Suggesting we go back to the way things were handled then. Would mean abolishing every technological and scientific advantage we made in the last 3000 years.

Originally Posted by Anarch

Now that is just a messed up assumption! You have not asked me any questions about myself and you assume to know a thing or two about me? Buddy I got news for you. With asking me anything you barely know jack save for what little I have already posted.

Questions

Try asking some before you make assumptions. You have no idea where I have been or what I have experienced. To jump the gun like you have just goes to expose your foolishness. Another wise quote: "It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool rather than opening your mouth and proving it"

Unless you and your entire family live in the Forrest, completely separated from human civilization. I doubt you never needed or used something from the government.

However you are currently using the Internet. An invention made possible by various governments around the world. So I doubt that is the case.

[Anarch]

Originally Posted by lycanox

....

This is what I mean about arguing for the sake of it. I have been ignoring you the last few posts because we can't have a normal conversation. So your quoting my replies to other folks offering counterpoints that are irrelevant because the original quoted points were directed to others. For example in the last bit you quoted of me I was responding to MaximumPains assumption "about not knowing how good I have it" and "my comprehension of what organized society has given me."

MaximumPain has no clue how"Good" I have it nor does he have a grasp on what organized society has "given" me.

For some reason you have choose to address my remarks toward him as though they were directed to you.

In conversational terms we would call this "cross talking"

Your replying to my words addressed to MaximumPain because you want to argue what you consider to be "your side" even though I no longer wish to engage in this conversation with you because of your unwillingness to answer my questions as well as your stubborn insistence on making false accusations against me in regards to what I claim and suggest.

If you seek further debate on this issue I suggest you engage MaximumPain or Beatnik Bob directly as you and I have been unable to establish a coherent conversation.

[Mezurashi]

Originally Posted by Anarch

Now that is just a messed up assumption! You have not asked me any questions about myself and you assume to know a thing or two about me? Buddy I got news for you. With asking me anything you barely know jack save for what little I have already posted.

Questions

Try asking some before you make assumptions. You have no idea where I have been or what I have experienced. To jump the gun like you have just goes to expose your foolishness. Another wise quote: "It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool rather than opening your mouth and proving it"

I suggest you LOOK DEEPLY INTO A MIRROR AND REPEAT THIS OVER AND OVER AGAIN ...

pot, meet the kettle ...

[Anarch]

What are you talking about? Do you know me? Have you asked me any questions about my personal experiences or my lot in life?
Better check your own mirror!

[Mezurashi]

Originally Posted by Anarch

What are you talking about? Do you know me? Have you asked me any questions about my personal experiences or my lot in life?
Better check your own mirror!

right back at ya ... I repeat ...

pot, meet kettle ...

[bluenose_ian]

Not being funny but the OP did not have a news source on this subject.

Should this thread be in Philosophy and Ethics.?

[Mezurashi]

Originally Posted by bluenose_ian

Not being funny but the OP did not have a news source on this subject.

Should this thread be in Philosophy and Ethics.?

the OP judges others because they act just like he does, and since he doesn't offer facts ... lol

and I am being funny ...

[Anarch]

Originally Posted by Mezurashi

right back at ya ... I repeat ...

pot, meet kettle ...

Whatever dude. Now your not saying anything rational. Your just typing to read your words. Don't mince words say something if you got something to say.

[Anarch]

Originally Posted by bluenose_ian

Should this thread be in Philosophy and Ethics.?

....Maybe.... As anarchy is part of political theory it could go here...as political theory is a philosophy it could go there...

Meh either way.